“…we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams, first (1789–1797) Vice President of the United States, and the second (1797–1801) President of the United States. Letter to the Officers of the First Brigade of the Third Division of the Militia of Massachusetts, 11 October 1798, in Revolutionary Services and Civil Life of General William Hull (New York, 1848), pp 265-6.
It is still true that “if you don’t comply, you may die.” Yes, both Alex Pretti and Renee Good’s lives were preventable tragedies, but the rhetoric from Democrats and their assisting in other’s feeling righteous in breaking the law is the real story!
Megyn Kelly and Adam Carolla discuss, with some additions by RPT. The full Megyn Kelly Show is here at YOUTUBE
(My Facebook post from a few days ago)
Sheriff Grady of Florida says in his state 74% of the illegal immigrants that we’ve detained have had criminal charges against them. The other 26% were riding with them.”
Renee Good was a quasi-trained, anti-ICE protestor getting paid to impede ICE was the cause… having her narcissism fed by Leftist government rapidly led to her death:
Sanctuary states and cities will not allow ICE to detain and walk out of jail safely (handcuffed) a criminal illegal alien.
ICE then must dress in military type garb with bullet proof vests, more powerful weapons, a larger group of persons, to go and capture these criminal illegal aliens at a place of residence or work, where these criminal illegal aliens have access to weapons, they did not have in the jail setting. This requires more men and a possibility of collateral damage.
In the process of entering work and residence of stopping a car with the suspect, this is when non-criminal illegal aliens are often picked up. You know, the abuelas the left says they are so concerned about. If they wanted to give these grandmothers a chance to stay in the country, then hand over the criminal illegal aliens from jail.
In states that co-operate, these aliens are handed over peacefully to one or two ICE officers from jail. Another factor is if ICE, when going into neighborhoods to find the worst of the worst, if they have protestors blocking the way, police are called in to enforce basic traffic laws (yes, at the threat of impound… gasp). Another contributing factor that saves public lives in states that cooperate is that if ICE needs help, they can call 911, and the police respond. In “sanctuary” [for the criminals, not the taxpayers] states, the police are ordered to ignore such calls – making the public causal collateral damage.
Democrat politicians then say such actions – they created the environment for this to happen – are fascist, tyrannical, and should be fought against. In the case of Minnesota, to cover up billions stolen from the coffers of the American taxpayer.
Renee Nicole Good [who believed her state representatives that this is the Third Reich rising – ppl are dumb as bricks!], also, while being given clear orders from law enforcement to get out of her vehicle, put the car into reverse, then gassed it forward towards an officer who was walking around the vehicle. Miss Good’s “wife” egged her on to “drive, baby, drive.”
ALL OF THE ABOVE contributed to this woman committing many felonies throughout the day in her attempt to stop a legal action by law enforcement. That would not have happened if these Democrat politicians cared about their constituents. Well, their American constituents. Miss Good would most definitely still be alive if she was trying this in say, Alabama.
But the Left wants a boogieman, for political reasons — let’s hope the majority of the American public start saying no to such Marxian tactics.
ALL THAT BEING SAID, ICE did disarm Alex Pretti… and so this should have changed the direction of the officers in dealing with Alex Pretti. Also what needs to be said is Alex’s resistance, RATHER THAN COMPLYING, was the key contributing factor to any confusion. At that point “gun, gun” was being yelled, everyone may not have been seeing that he was disarmed, or, if he was reaching for a secondary weapon in the chaos during the yelling of “gun, gun.”
All this chaos – DEMOCRAT FOMENTED…
is the reason this is a tragedy. Add this into the mix:
Another officer removed the man’s sidearm, and then walked away, but it was discharged negligently (see for yourself).
The Sig P320 is notorious for doing, but typically only when dropped. That then triggered the other agents to think that the man on the ground, Alex Pretti, had begun shooting, so they neutralized the perceived threat.
If this is what happened, it’s an incredibly unfortunate accident in Minneapolis.
That does not matter however… Dems shouldn’t have propagandized, Minnesota should have cooperated, thus, Good and Pretti wouldn’t even have been there. LAST SAFETY CHECK? Don’t insert yourself into official law enforcement operations when your state officials fail you.
Which is why this “Twi-X” is so important. Not only would Mister Pretti and Misses Good be alive today [most probably] if my bullet points were the opposite, but they would also be alive if they hadn’t inserted themselves into an operation. Which makes these… “Awful But Lawful”
May be an awful shoot, but still lawful. — Eldest
LIKEWISE, if it weren’t for Biden letting in a minimum of 15-million illegal aliens, the innocent lives taken by illegals wouldn’t also be tragic!
Preventable tragedies:
Renee Good
Alex Pretti
Preventable tragedies:
Brianna Kelson
Karen Diamond
Billy McKellar
Zabar McKellar
Krishaun McKellar
Kason McKellar
Nicole Gregory
Larisha Sharell Thompson
Jimmy Friesenhahn
Ava Moore
Jorge Gonzalez
Aleksandre Modebadze
Jim McCammon
Camillia Williams
Lesbia Mileth Ramirez-Guerra
Ilias “Louie” Mavros
Adan Lopez Lorenzo
Matias Roblero Emanuel
Debrina Kawam
Grayson Christopher Davis
Angel Samaniego
Evangeline Ubaldo-Moreno
Sebastian Ubaldo-Moreno
Fraime Ubaldo
Marangely Moreno-Santiago
Tiger Gutierrez
Rylan Oncale
Taliyah Crochet
Melody Waldecker
Kaitlyn Weaver
Jocelyn Nungaray
Scott Miller
Matthew Carney
Anilson Mauricio Perez Gomez
Kristie Thibodeaux
Lauryn Ni’Kole Leonard
Laken Riley
Shannon Patricia Jungwirth
Mario Alberto Trejo Estrada
Jorge Alexander Reyes-Jungwirth
Riordan Powell
Melissa Powell
Travis Wolfe
Catalina Valdez Andrade
Merced Andrade Bailon
Ruperto Mondragon Salgado
Jario Hernandez-Sanchez
Carmen Unilda Navas Zuniga
Michael Kunovich
Diana Velazquez Alvarado
Julisa Molina Rivera
Jose Jonathan Casarez
Sonia Argentina Guzman
Daniel Enrique Laso
David Breaux
Karim Abou Najm
Matteo Garcia
Erpharo Gilbert
Limber Lopez Funez
Diane Hill Luckett
Maria Rios
Maris Mareen DiGiovanni
Brent Allan Hallett
Martin Iran Carreon Adame
Ned Byrd
Kayla Marie Hamilton
Sandra Vazquez Ceja
Victor Huerta
Terry Aultman
Brenda Aultman
Erin Simanskis
Rachel Morin
Ruby Garcia
George Levin
Lizbeth Medina
Maria Gonzalez
Aiden Antonio Torres De Paz
Luis Jocsan Nanez Lopez
Hallie Helgeson
Brady Heiling
Ivory Smith
Alex “AJ” Wise Jr.
Mustaffa Muhammad
Nicacio Hernandez Gonzalez
Jon Douglas Ratcliffe
Jacques Price
Amalia Coc Choc de Pec
Estrella Anastasia Pec Coc
Maricela Simon Franco
Christopher Gadd
Jeremy Poou-Caceras
Santiago Jacobo
Ni’Kole Leonard
Anjelica Guadelupe
Amaya Briceño
Aiden Clark
Kimberlee Guillory
Gloria Stephanie Palomec
Paul Osokin
Anya Varfolomeev
Jennifer Ann Morton
Dania Cruz-Mejia
Evangeline Ubaldo-Moreno
Sebastian Ubaldo-Moreno
Christopher Gadd
Dennis Buan
David Hang
Colby Brice Compton
Gretchen Gross
Crecensio Rosas De La Rosa
Corbin Wagner
Francisco Javier Cuellar
Douglas R. Cline
Isidro Cortes
Karina Torres
Moussa Fofana
Andi Lynn Blair
Cheston Edwards
Cindy Goulding
Evelyn Falcon
Miguel Ruiz
Francisco Zamora
Victoria Eileen Harwell
One group deliberately put themselves in danger by threatening police officers.
The other includes SOME of the actual victims—people who were harmed by illegal immigrants who aren’t supposed to be in our country at all.
Yet the left directs its outrage selectively, and the hypocrisy is both exhausting and morally bankrupt.
This is an old debate I was involved in at Infoceptor Forums (a defunct site for early gamers via: StarCraft / Warcraft / Diablo — in the Serious Discussions/Religion part of the forum. Similar to SPACE BATTLES)… the reason I do not do this format of debating any longer is because there would be too many people coming in to comment and challenge me… and not enough “Me’s” to respond back. Keep in mind that many here are not Christians, so some foul language is in the mix.
Enjoy… but I warn you… it is long! The debate happened between 05-27-2003 & 06-05-2003 and their are many commentators… it is raw.
[I will add some commentary in these brackets]
METHSNAX SAID:
I am an athiest, but I am always open to learning about new religions and such, so I was wondering if those who have a religion would please explain their religion so that we could better understand that of which we do not partake in.
HERESY RESPONDS:
I am also an atheist… but I have some suggested reading for you.
Will to Power – Nietzsche
Koran (well… not all of it…)
Inferno – Dante
Genesis
PREATOR ANTRAX RESPONDS:
I’m sort of an Agnostic. Although I tend to think God does exist. But as a man of science, I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.
But that’s not where it stops, I basically believe that God exists and that I must stand opposed to him. I do what I can to ridicule his religions and find fallacies and contradictions in his teachings. In fact, I have a score board, currently 3:2 (I’m winning), of successful direct stands against one another. It makes for an interesting life. Oh, and I’m not a Satanist, if he was so prevalent then I’d oppose that bastard too.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
[QUOTING PREATOR ANTRAX] “But as a man of science I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.”
Nor is he prepared to go out and spend a little cash to see if science does indeed point to a Divine Intelligence behind it all.
For any wishing to get the best answers to tough questions, I will take a quote from my “Replying to Human / Ape Proof of Evolution?” strain, for those interested in being unbiased (scientific).
Quote:
I have a few suggestions for your viewing and reading pleasure:
The first is by an atheist, Richard Milton. He wrote a book called Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, and that’s exactly what it does. The author is not opposed to evolution, per se, but he is opposed to how it is currently taught, being that it is more pseudo-science than actual science. Plus, he is not a creationist trying to bury the proverbial axe.
Now, keep in mind that these books I am mentioning are for the introductory reader on this subject… however, if you are a college student taking courses in a particular scientific field, let me know and I will offer a more technical manual.
The next book I recommend is by Ralph Muncaster, and is called, Dismantling Evolution: Building the Case for Intelligent Design. He is a Christian, but the book is written for the irreligious, for the most part.
These two books, one by an atheist, the other by a Christian-theist, would be great – positive – places to start from. I also realize that documentaries of the quality close to, say, The Learning Channel, or the Discovery Channel, would help bring what these books mention to a three-dimensional life. The two DVD’s I will offer for your investigation into this matter are:
The first is a short (30 min) film, but is packed with a large punch. It is called, From a Frog to a Prince, and is well worth the money. The other DVD documentary is called, Unlocking the Mystery of Life: The Scientific Case for Intelligent Design. Both are well done and deserve an honest hearing in front of your viewing pleasure.
These four suggestions will allow you to, over the course of, say a year, if you took your time, to get some of the positive input by doctorate holding scientists and professors in their special fields of science on this matter. This is not me changing someone’s mind, but allowing said person to make up his or her own mind in light of all the evidence. This is all I wish for people.
PREATOR ANTRAX RESPONDS TO ME:
[QUOTING PAPA GIORGIO] “But as a man of science I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.” Nor is he prepared to go out and spend a little cash to see if science does indeed point to a Divine Intelligence behind it all.
Oh so you know what I spend my money on, do you? And I know for a fact that there is no reputable scientific theory that proves the existence of a “Divine Intelligence”, there are certainly philosophers that have thought to have proved it, such as Berkeley but they have been met with equally strong opposition. Everytime someone thinks they’ve got proof, someone think about it and provides a reason to reject this proof. And as such I am not going to say for sure that either side is correct. I allow for the existence of God, I think I would be disappointed if he didn’t exist. God is quite and adversary to have. But I’m sorry Papa Giorgio, you don’t get to claim that science has conclusively proved God exists, I know it hasn’t. Anyway it would destroy the religion if it had, because religion is meant to be a question of faith…if you prove it you remove the concept of faith and in effect destroy the religion. Prove that God exists and then believing in him means nothing.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
[QUOTING PREATOR ANTRAX] “And I know for a fact that there is no reputable scientific theory that proves the existence of a “Divine Intelligence”
Have you viewed and read the above books/DVD’s? How about reading Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, by Dr. Michael Behe? Or The Natural Limits to Biological Change? How about the two seminal works, The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for an Intelligent Designer, and Mere Creation: Science, Faith & Intelligent Design.
Please tell me, Antrax, which creation or intelligent design books or articles HAVE you read? I would love to know — so I wouldn’t have to go around guessing where you spend your money. I would like to know, since you so forcefully claim there is no scientific evidence for design. What made you come to that conclusion? Bias? Or actually looking at the best available evidence?
Do you say, “God doesn’t exist, therefore…“
Or do you say, “I have looked at the best evidence available to me now, and I do not see…“
[….]
Please, again, let me know what books, articles, or media you have taken the time to thoroughly read and meditate on to come to your brazen conclusions that 90% of the world’s population throughout history hasn’t.
CRAZY MOFO JOINS IN:
It’s not that we haven’t looked for the evidence that intelligent design actually took place, it’s that there isn’t any. Seriously I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design. It’s hog wash I tell you :)
And I noticed you referred to “god” as a he. Why does everyone do this? If something created humans and everything why would it be logical to assume he is a human male?
Anyways Papa Giorgio can you please just tell me a few of the best points of why intelligent design is feasible?
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
[QUOTING MOFO] “I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design.”
This is the point MoFo, when people say, “well, you don’t know what I have read or studied… but I know there is no evidence in this or that,” when pressed about what they have read, silence usually follows. It did with you MoFo [a previous debate], and it did with Antrax. I could sit here and argue your ignorance to the issue of Intelligent Design theory, but I would be hitting up against a brick wall. Because you refuse to even look, let me repeat you again
[QUOTING MOFO] “I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design.”
The point is you haven’t even looked yet, you just assume it not to be so. I don’t reject Mormonism, or Jehovah Witness’, or Islam because I know them to be false based on already assuming Christianity to be true. I have gone out and put the same test I put to the Christian faith. The same goes for science. I go out and put a test to what science currently knows, and what we can see in nature.
I don’t know if you realized yet (I’m sure you do), MoFo, but I quoted you at the beginning of the “Human Evolution” [another debate] post, and I must say (and I do not say this in meanness, or a prideful manner), you ended up looking silly. Why? Because you state something so emphatically, and then cannot back up what you are saying. And then after reading it all, you just shrug it off and say, “Well! I still believe in it!”
I haven’t heard such a haughty tone from Dr. Pangloss [FYI, that is a fictional character in Voltaire’s book Candide], or the others who ask constructive questions? Or maybe some have seen the weakness in what they use to believe were good arguments (basing their beliefs on them), and are now – maybe for the first time in their life (and rightly so) – going to go out and “dig a little deeper.” They, however, haven’t dug quite the deep hole you and Antrax seem to dig.
Again, I just think you should consider — I know, it sounds out-of-this-world — just maybe… possibly, going out of your way and check out just one of the resources I mentioned. Start with the atheist’s book about evolution I recommended.
Don’t say there isn’t, and then go look with that attitude. Say, there’s a possibility (just a shred of one, but a shred nonetheless), but I should look into it to see, for myself.
Are you a
“God doesn’t exist [presupposed], therefore…“
Or,
“I have looked at the best evidence available to me now [open-minded], so I haven’t seen yet…“
One is scientific in nature, the other isn’t.
P.S.,I will get to a few examples later, I want to let the other posts [debates] die down first.
GIADDON ALSO JOINS:
One reason I don’t believe in god is the lack of proof of his existence. I used to be a Christian, but left in disgust when I saw that there was just… Nothing there. A bunch of hypocritical and contradictory pish-tosh that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
For example, on Origins.org [I recommended this article to MethSnax, but it is a dead site now] I found a fascinating article on how the burden of proof lies on the atheists. From the beginning, this is illogical. It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as god. The whole article seems to say:
“We’re tired of trying to prove that god exists: your turn.”
Furthermore, back in ye olde tymes, God was quite an active fellow. Starting floods, talking to people, sending plagues, burning bushes. Yet all of a sudden he went quiet. Why did he suddenly stop doing things? Did he get bored and wander away? Did he go on a snack run? What? Or maybe he can’t contact us and we can’t contact him for a very simple reason:
He doesn’t exist.
METHSNAX:
Wow, thank you very much. I have read much of the material suggested, except for the books, although I believe they will contain a great deal that I should know to. I have read Genesis, and part of the Koran. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should form my own religion. It would be a varied form of atheism that merely questions God existence in a more scientific manner, not completely deny it. This way, people can not believe in God, but still maintain an understanding of other religions. I hope that wasn’t a stupid idea. The only true problem I see with religion is that if you total the deaths caused in the name of God/god(s) compared to all other deaths in the world, you will see that most are in the name of God/god(s) or religions that promote non violence.
CRAZY MOFO:
Right you are, MethSnax. The terrorists behind the nightmares of 9/11 believed they are going to a type of “heaven” for their brave acts.
Bush thinks he is going to a type of “heaven” for protecting america, the “good side”, and destroying “evil” (terrorists and terrorist harboring countries).
It’s the same damn idea on both sides, however each side thinks they are the “good side”! Good going religion :(
KAIGUN NOW JOINS:
So lemme get this straight, because religion is used as an excuse for killing someone, it is the religion’s fault?
Let me pose a question to you. A criminal goes on a shooting spree and attributes his mass murder to video game violence. Do you therefore draw the conclusion that it is video games that are responsible for these murders?
PREATOR ANTRAX:
I actually do read alot of books and articles pertaining to scientific and philosophical evaluations of religion and religious claims. And I have regular conversation with the father of my best friend… who has spent the last 3-4 years of his life evaluating religion, and has spent huge amounts of money on books. So far I have not found anything that works as a sound confirmation of the existence of a divine intelligence. Stop being so pig-headed by assuming because you’ve found something that you see as evidence, that everyone will take it as evidence. Some people take more to convince.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
Wasn’t it you, GIADDON, who said there was no logical proof for His existence? Then I posted a response:
This contingent being is caused either (1) by itself, or (2) by another.
If it were caused by itself, it would have to precede itself in existence, which is impossible.
P2) Therefore, this contingent being (2) is caused by another, i.e., depends on something else for its existence.
P3) That which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (3) another contingent being, or (4) a non-contingent being (necessary) being.
If 3, then this contingent cause must itself be caused by another, and so onto infinity.
P4) Therefore, that which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (5) an infinite series of contingent beings, or (4) a necessary being.
P5) An infinite series of contingent beings (5) is incapable of yielding a sufficient reason for the existence of any being.
P6) Therefore, a necessary being (4) exists!
Based on the Principle of Existential Causality
Some limited, changing being[s] exist.
The present existence of every limited, changing being is caused by another.
There cannot be an infinite regress of causes of being.
Therefore, there is a first Cause of the present existence of these beings.
This first Cause must be infinite, necessary, eternal, simple, unchangeable and one.
This first uncaused Cause is identical with the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition
A mix of both
Something exists (e.g., I do);
I am a contingent being;
Nothing cannot cause something;
Only a Necessary Being can cause a contingent being;
Therefore, I am caused to exist by a Necessary Being;
But I am personal, rational, and moral kind of being (since I engage in these kinds of activities);
Therefore this Necessary Being must be a personal, rational, and moral kind of being, since I am similar to him by the Principle of Analogy;
But a Necessary Being cannot be contingent (i.e., not necessary) in its being which would be a contradiction;
Therefore, this Necessary Being is personal, rational, and moral in a necessary way, not in a contingent way;
This Necessary Being is also eternal, uncaused, unchanging, unlimited, and one, since a Necessary Being cannot come to be, be caused by another, undergo change, be limited by any possibility of what it could be (a Necessary Being has no possibility to be other than it is), or to be more than one Being (since there cannot be two infinite beings);
Therefore, one necessary, eternal, uncaused, unlimited (=infinite), rational, personal, and moral being exists;
Such a Being is appropriately called “God” in the theistic sense, because he possesses all the essential characteristics of a theistic God;
Therefore, the theistic God exists.
Giaddon, you said:
“It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as God”
Amorphous means:
lacking definite form; having no specific shape; formless: the amorphous clouds.
of no particular kind or character; indeterminate; having no pattern or structure; unorganized: an amorphous style; an amorphous personality.
Now, I want either Giaddon to answer this, or anyone else fo that matter… what did Giaddon just do to contradict her/him self??
I will give a hint below with a small portion of a paper I have already posted… and you would think these types of mistakes would be stopped once shown – going to show how much bad-thinking is incorporated into our minds when not honed. My favorite quote is,
“Raising one’s self-consciousness [awareness] about worldviews is an essential part of intellectual maturity” (From the book, World-Views In Conflict: Choosing Christianity In a World of Ideas, by Ronald Nash).
Quote:
What about agnosticism, does the belief that one cannot ultimately know anything about God hold up to rational and logical thought? *Before going any further, I should define the two different types of agnostics:
Agnosticism: The state of not-knowing whether there is a God or not. *The humble [soft] agnostic says that he doesn’t know whether there is a God. *The less humble [hard] agnostic says that you don’t either… [and] thinks that we can’t ever really know (Tom Morris, Philosophy for Dummies. Chicago, Illinois: IDG Books Worldwide (1999), p. 238.)
I am mainly dealing here with the “hard” agnostic. *The “soft” agnostic is open to receiving information about God from others and then tests these claims by the rules and science of logic, history, and experience. *An example that bears striking similarities to the “hard” agnostic is that of a conversation between a teacher and her student:
Teacher: “Welcome, students. This is the first day of class, and so I want to lay down some ground rules. First, since no one person has the truth, you should be open-minded to the opinions of your fellow students. Second… Elizabeth, do you have a question?”
Elizabeth: “Yes I do. If nobody has the truth, isn’t that a good reason for me not to listen to my fellow students? After all, if nobody has the truth, why should I waste my time listening to other people and their opinions? What’s the point? Only if somebody has the truth does it make sense to be open-minded. Don’t you agree?”
Teacher: “No, I don’t. Are you claiming to know the truth? Isn’t that a bit arrogant and dogmatic?”
Elizabeth: “Not at all. Rather I think it’s dogmatic, as well as arrogant, to assert that no single person on earth knows the truth. After all, have you met every single person in the world and quizzed them exhaustively? If not, how can you make such a claim? Also, I believe it is actually the opposite of arrogance to say that I will alter my opinions to fit the truth whenever and wherever I find it. And if I happen to think that I have good reason to believe I do know truth and would like to share it with you, why wouldn’t you listen to me? Why would you automatically discredit my opinion before it is even uttered? I thought we were supposed to listen to everyone’s opinion.”
Teacher: “This should prove to be an interesting semester.”
Another Student: “(blurts out) Ain’t that the truth.” (Students laugh)
(Francis J. Beckwith & Gregory Koukl, Relativism: Feet Planted Firmly In Mid-Air. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books (1998), p. 74.)
The hard agnostic dismisses the argument even before hearing it. *This type of agnosticism is refuted by the associate professor of philosophy and government at the University of Texas at Austin, J. Budziszewski (Ph.D., Yale University):
“To say that we cannot know anything about God is to say something about God; it is to say that if there is a God, he is unknowable. *But in that case, he is not entirely unknowable, for the agnostic certainly thinks that we can know one thing about him: *That nothing else can be known about him. *Unfortunately, the position that we can know exactly one thing about God – his unknowability in all respects except this – is equally unsupportable, for why should this one thing be an exception? How could we know that any possible God would be of such a nature that nothing else could be known about him? *On what basis could we rule out his knowability in all other respects but this one? The very attempt to justify the claim confutes it, for the agnostic would have to know a great many things about God in order to know he that couldn’t know anything else about him” (Norman Geisler & Paul Hoffman, editors, Why I Am a Christian: Leading Thinkers Explain Why They Believe. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books (2001), p. 54.)
Agnostics basically claim that nothing can be known about reality (or, Reality). *Norman Geisler points out that “in its ultimate form [agnosticism] claims that all knowledge about reality (i.e., truth) is impossible. *But this itself is offered as a truth about reality” (Josh McDowell, The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict. Nashville: Thomas Nelson (1999), p. 637).
He did contact us, and proved His existence.
KAIGUN, great point, and you clearly show a use of a part of the brain that others seem to not, common sense! Not only do MethSnax and MoFo “blame the video game,” but they would then say the video game does not exist. I know I just simplified it too much, but the premise remains.
[A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be ‘most’ really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 7,000 years of recorded human warfare. COMPARED TO just 100-years where atheistic/dialectical materialistic government were founded and killed more people than all of religion before the 20th century — if you exclude Islam. So atheism in 100-years killed more people than all of the history of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Jainism, Taoism, etc., combined. So, it seems, you would WANT people to be religious to curtail out nature. I also expanded on this a tad HERE]
Again ANTRAX: What have you read? Give me the articles, names of the books, etc. I want to know… please inform me, as, I may have read it as well. if putting you on the spot is pigheaded, then so be it.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
MOFO, you are very apt at showing your youthful “ire.” My hope is you actually make it from the abyss of necessitous thought patterns and join the world of reflective thinking. To pigeonhole the geopolitical landscape into such a neanderthalish comparison of, “good religion vs. bad religion,” is just too much for me to bear. Again, I entreat you to stop focusing on your very-apparent psychological fear of anything Christian – because you apparently cannot even comment on a simple political choice made by a United States president without throwing religion in the mix.
Are you so tainted about the Christian faith (or, religion in general) that you would simply brush it aside by making such child-like comparisons of a complex issue?
I wish to leave the world of religio-political thought (or so inferred by you) for a moment and share an incite with you that I hope (and can only pray), hits home.
Quote:
Instead of thinking of Christianity as a collection of theological bits and pieces to be believed or debated, we should approach our faith as a conceptual system, as a total world-and-life view. Once people understand that both Christianity and its adversaries in the world of ideas are worldviews, they will be in a better position to judge the relative merits of the total Christian system. William Abraham has written:
“Religious belief should be assessed as a rounded whole rather than taken in stark isolation, Christianity, for example, like other world faiths, is a complex, large-scale system of belief which must be seen as a whole before it is assessed. To break it up into disconnected parts is to mutilate and distort its true character. We can, of course, distinguish certain elements in the Christian faith, but we must still stand back and see it as a complex interaction of these elements. We need to see it as a metaphysical system, as a worldview, that is total in its scope and range” (An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion, p. 104).
The case for or against Christian theism should be made and evaluated in terms of total systems. Christianity is not simply a religion that tells human beings how they may be forgiven, however important this information is. Christianity is also a total world-and-life view. Our faith has important things to say about the whole of human life. Once Christians understand in a systematic way how the options to Christianity are also worldviews, they will be in a better position to justify their choice of Christianity rationally. The reason many people reject our faith is not due to their problems with one or two isolated issues; it is the result of their anti-Christian conceptual scheme, which leads them to reject information and arguments that for believers provide support for the Christian worldview.
Ronald H. Nash, Worldviews in Conflict: Choosing Christianity in a World of Ideas (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1992)
“The problem with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult, and left untried” — G. K. Chesterton (Quote taken from, A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism)
A book that helps to compare three major worldviews is entitled Understanding the Times: The Religious Worldviews of Our Day and the Search for Truth, by David A. Noebel. It compares Secular Humanism, Marxism/Leninism, and Christianity in the realm of:
1) Theology 2) Philosophy 3) Ethics 4) Biology 5) Psychology 6) Sociology 7) Law 8) Politics 9) Economics 10) History
Until you look at Christianity in a way that includes the whole sum, you are merely making a mockery of my faith, and yourself, when saying such puerile statement about George W’s belief.
SIRZAP:
[SIR ZIP QUOTES GIADDON]
Furthermore, back in ye olde tymes, God was quite an active fellow. Starting floods, talking to people, sending plagues, burning bushes. Yet all of a sudden he went quiet. Why did he suddenly stop doing things? Did he get bored and wander away? Did he go on a snack run? What? Or maybe he can’t contact us and we can’t contact him for a very simple reason:
He doesn’t exist.
Jesus… founded a church… with the guidance of the… Holy Spirit…
GOD did actively intervened in history…
but of course… Jesus told HE will come again… but there will be turbulent times ahead…
Knowledge will increase… and People will travel to and fro… as prophesied by Daniel…
[SIR ZIP QUOTES PREATOR ANTRAX]
I actually do read a lot of books and articles pertaining to scientific and philosophical evaluations of religion and religious claims. And I have regular conversation with the father of my best friend…who has spent the last 3-4 years of his life evaluating religion, and has spent huge amounts of money on books. So far I have not found anything that works as a sound confirmation of the existence of a divine intelligence. Stop being so pig-headed by assuming because you’ve found something that you see as evidence, that everyone will take it as evidence. Some people take more to convince.
Me too… I spent books on other people’s religion and beliefs….
Divine Intelligence…. well let me put it this way… a Story… a true story and was published in Reader’s Digests
One time, an atheist visited his friend, a Christian, both are Astronomers…
The atheist was fascinated with the Solar system Model and asked who made it….
the Christian answered “nobody!!!” jokingly with a smile,
but the atheist persisted, knowing, his Christian friend had to be joking.
The Atheist continued, praising and really admiring the model….
then the Christian said, if somebody made the model, how could the real thing not exist???
end of story….
I looked for the original story as even with my minor edits to smooth out SIR ZIPS telling of it, I did find it in John MacArthur’s book, “The Battle for the Beginning: The Bible on Creation and the Fall of Adam” (p.84).
The story is told of Charles Boyle, the fourth Earl of Orrery, a devoted Christian and brilliant thinker who was fascinated with Kepler’s and Newton’s discoveries about planetary motion and the intricate design of the universe. Boyle hired a watchmaker to design a working mechanical model of the solar system that demonstrated the motion of the planets around the sun. (Such a model is called an orrery, after its designer.) Boyle was showing the model to an atheistic scientist, who was very impressed with the clock¬work model. The atheist said, “That’s a very impressive model. Who made it for you?” “No one made it,” Boyle wryly replied. “It just happened.”
I am assuming the Reader’s Digest retelling of it included the idea tat one could not make a model of something if that “something” didn’t exist.
[SIR ZIP QUOTES METHSNAX]
Wow, thank you very much. I have read much of the material suggested, except for the books, although I believe they will contain a great deal that I should know to. I have read Genisis, and part of the Koran. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should form my own religion. It would be a varied form of atheism that mearly questions God existance in a more scientific manner, not completely deny it. This way, people can not believe in God, but still maintain an understanding of other religions. I hope that wasn’t a stupid idea. The only true problem I see with religion is that if you total the deaths caused in the name of God/god(s) compared to all other deaths in the world, you will see that most are in the name of God/god(s) or religions that promote non violence.
Science has limitations…. it depends on senses… but GOD transcends beyond our senses…
You can not just gain religion by intellectual means… Religion is a way of life….
CRAZY MOFO:
First off I didn’t’ blame the video game, of course the person that commits the act is always to blame, but religion helps in fogging their choices.
Secondly I just wanna know why/how people can believe there is a “supernatural” being behind everything we see and do when there is:
Zero evidence,
Zero reason, and finally,
Zero logic for something like this to exist
If a being created the universe who created that being? It is much more logical to assume that the universe is a sea of energy and matter forming stars and planets and sometimes planets that can suit life (earth).
Religion has been wrong time and time again, after all, the churches thought the earth was flat and it was at the center of the universe. We can thank courageous astronomers for discovering the TRUTH and risking torture and ridicule.
HERESY:
Quote:
Zero evidence,
Zero reason, and finally,
Zero logic for something like this to exist
There is also ZERO evidence that there is not a creator.
Seriously… how can so many atheists be blindly one sided?
I’m an atheist, but I still see the argument.
Excuse me while I go vomit.
EL_CHUPACABRA STEPS IN THE RING:
Heretic ur logic is extremely flawed, if there is no divine being how could there be evidence that there is no divine being? Has anyone ever heard of the Schrödinger Cat experiment?
Basically if you put a live cat in a lead box and then you throw in a poisoned cat treat and then you seal the box, you have no way of knowing whether the cat is alive or dead therefore the cat exists in two states alive and dead.
We cannot know whether or not God exists so therefore God both exists and doesn’t exist. Furthermore because the cat is sealed in a box it makes no difference to us whether the cat is alive or dead…
oh and one other thing for those of you who say that there cannot be an infinite cause for the creation of the universe you are quite wrong. There is a relatively new theory concerning time travel and the creation of the universe though I cannot recall the exact details, I think the book I read it in was called Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe. Something about at some point in time the universe creates itself in the past and ur left with the eternal question of which came first the chicken or the egg… I dunno I can’t remember ill try and dig up the book and get back to you
HERESY:
Quote:
if there is no divine being how could there be evidence that there is no divine being?
um great argument….
I’ll just say this.
If there is a divine being, how could there be evidence that there is a divine being?
On both sides, there is a fair amount of theory and such, and although the creation theory has been losing some ground, is it really all that less relevant?
Some may say yes, while many say no. But because there is not sufficient evidence on either side, I choose to accept both as legitimate, although I lean towards atheism.
Is my logic flawed? Hardly. After all, there is no PROOF that there is no god – and that is all I say.
The cat cannot exist in two states. Regardless of what you know… it is in only one. Its like saying. “You don’t know if I am male or female.” I only exist in one state… regardless of how much you know.
Is my logic flawed? No. Are most atheists horribly one sided? Yes. Is yours? Not looking promising.
EL_CHUPACABRA:
To you the cat does exist in two states. The cat is encased in solid lead you can’t see it, it can’t see you. How can you possibly know if the cat is alive or dead? Its all about perspective. And again how can there be proof that something doesn’t exist if it doesn’t exist? I want a 10 legged dog, try and prove to me it doesn’t exist.
HERESY:
No. It doesn’t. The cat exists in one state…. you simply cannot know which. This DOES NOT mean that it exists in two.
Of course, the fact that a dog will have ten legs is scientifically disproven. Or at least highly unlikely. it could happen… but it probably wont.
God has not been disproven.
Try again…
EL_CHUPACABRA:
OK I am not attempting to disprove God I’m attempting to prove that it’s impossible to prove or disprove God and yes, the cat does exist in two states, if you don’t believe so then tell me if the cat is alive or dead.
Oh, and please show me scientific evidence that disproves the existence of a 10-legged dog.
HERESY:
It’s called DNA…. the genetic structure of a dog does not allow for the additional legs to be grown without mutation. Although additional legs have been formed before, iirc.
And basically, what I’m saying is that your 2 existences thing is bullshit. If you know what the existence is or not, there is still only ONE true way that it is. KNOWING has nothing to do with it. Your idea is RETARDED. There. I said it.
Anyway… I’m basically just humoring you now… In my mind I’ve decided that I’ve pretty much pwned you… so I’m gonna go study for a math test….
EL_CHUPACABRA:
I would let you win this one because I am truly just as tired of arguing this point as you are, but I just don’t have it in me to bow to someone who does not even realize that the whole cat thing was not my idea in the first place. I’m in fact citing a well-known and accepted idea that was created by Schrodinger and is used in such fields as quantum mechanics. Also, unless you can show me a complete map of a dog’s genome and show me where the dog is constrained to 4 legs then you had better find some more concrete proof. Anyways study for your math test I’m sure you need to.
HERESY:
I realize that you are citing a few sources… I’m simply saying that I don’t agree with them. Anyway, I was arguing a side which I don’t really support and I have massive finals tomorrow.
CRAZY MOFO:
I like the cat example, it produces the same problem we have here. We can’t prove there is or isn’t a creator. SO we must choose the most logical choice, and that is that there isn’t one.
And don’t say but why is that the most logical choice? Because I’m not gonna repeat myself as I am forced to in almost every thread I’m sick of it, you know how I feel on this…
GIADDON:
Papa Giorgio:Obviously my “contradiction” was that I referred to God as a “he”, then called “him” amorphous. I was simply trying to use the conventional term regarding God, to avoid confusion. It’s mere semantics, and shouldn’t even be up for debate. If you prefer, I can call God “bullshit.”
And as for your “God was required to make humans” argument, my response stands: what made God? And if he just “is” why can’t the whole universe just “be?” That argument falls apart if you spend even a second of time thinking about it.
SirZap: What? I don’t understand what you are saying.
Heretic:Good attitude, and one I wish more people would share, both atheists and believers. As I said, there is no way to prove that there is no God, I just don’t believe in him, and I have presented my reasons.
El_Chupacabra: The cat occupies one stage only. Our observation is irrelevant to the truth.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
MOFO(and others), you essentially said there is
“zero reason, and finally, zero logicfor something like this to exist”
May I refer you again to my already post reasonably logical argument above:
“If a being created the universe who created that being?”
Quote:
The most prominent objection that is ever raised against a form of cosmological argument like this consists in asking, “Then what is the explanation for God’s existence?” This is most effective when done with a smugness of tone and deliberate emphasis of the word “God.”
The objection usually means to imply here that the cosmological argument will generate an infinite regress of explanations. To explain the existence of God, by the reasoning just used, it would seem that we need to postulate the existence of a Super-God. But then that being’s existence would need explaining by the activities of a Super-Duper-God, and so on, ad infinitum and absurdum (to infinity and absurdity).
This objection seems to just assume that God’s existence does not have a scientific or personal explanation, then it is unintelligible. But it should be by now what a defender of the argument will say to this.
The existence of God is intelligible not because it was caused by anything or anyone, but because it flows from his essence. This was the claim that the ontological argument made about God. God cannot fail to exist. God exists necessarily. It is God’s essential nature to exist. And in this regard, God is very different from anything in the universe. God’s existence logically follows from God’s essence. No other explanation for God is either necessary or possible. Thus, we don’t have to worry about postulating (theoretically supposing the existence of) other deities in an infinite regress (or infinite mess) of explanatory postulations.
God, as the ontological argument told us, is fundamentally different from the universe. The very concept of God, it contends, precludes God’s not existing. So we cannot even imagine God’s not existing and know with full detail what we are imagining, without contradiction. But we can with the universe. It does not seem to be at all the sort of thing whose essence is to exist. Its concept does not logically imply its reality in all sets of possible circumstances. And that is different from the concept of God as a greatest possible being.
Notice that the conclusion of this version of the cosmological argument is not “Therefore there is a God.” it is just that, if we are rational, we should believe that there is a God. But this in itself is a surprise to many people who associate religious belief not with rationality but instead with the irrational side of life. This argument contends not just that it is rational to believe, but that it is irrational not to believe.
Excerpted from Philosophy for Dummies, by Tom Morris, p.253.
MOFO, you said:
“Religion has been wrong time and time again, after all the churches thought the earth was flat and it was at the center of the universe.”
All not true Mofo?! In fact, the flat-earth theory is a myth, but you wouldn’t want to actually investigate that, because that would require putting your bias aside and looking into the matter yourself… I mean, you have already presupposed what your saying is true, right? The answer is yes, because you have emphatically stated these things to be true, thus proving the church to be false.
Before I go about taking more of your examples and showing you – and the others here – how you are wrong yet again, I want to make an analogy. Just for a moment, lets say you are right, lets say that the church thought the earth was flat, and also believed a geocentric universe (actually they did, but there is more to this story than simply this, I will shortly explain). What does this have to do with the truth of a matter, like, say, God’s existence? If the Son of Sam killed his victims merely for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, would that make the equation 2 + 2 = 4 wrong? No it wouldn’t, neither would the hypothetical that the church taught a flat earth. This has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Even if there were no Christians on earth, this would not falsify the truth claims of Christianity.
Okay, back to business. A very fun read is a book by Jeffrey Russell called, Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern History. Two other books worth mentioning are: Not So!: Popular Myths About America from Columbus to Clinton, by Paul Boller; and, 6 Modern Myths About Christianity and Western Civilization, by Philip Sampson.
The Bible clearly states the earth is round (Isaiah 40:22), the Hebrew root word used in this verse literally means sphericity, with the 3-D in mind.
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
Etc.
As for geocentricism, the church rejected the interpretation of misused Scripture for geocentricism that the secular universities taught. The analogy would be if the church today accepted Darwinism.
Quote:
Creationists are often accused of trying to oppose science on purely theological terms. The argument usually contains a strong warning to remember the persecution of Galileo by the theologians of his own time. It continues, “History has proven that Galileo was correct and that the dogmatic religious authorities who opposed him were wrong.” With one simple illustration, scientists warn that any interference in scientific ideas by religious people is tantamount to religious persecution.
The historical account of Galileo’s struggle for acceptance is not, however, a black and white issue. In fact, it is one of the most interesting and complex historical events recorded. Galileo’s trial was not the simple conflict between science and religion so commonly pictured. It was a complex power struggle, fought upon the foundations of personal and professional pride, envy, and ambition.
The stage for this tragedy had been set a few years earlier during what is commonly referred to as the Protestant reformation. During the reformation, the Catholic Church’s authority had been called into question. Priests and laypeople had judged Rome as having forsaken true Christian beliefs. The reformation shook the Church at its very foundation of authority, causing it to lose much of its world power and influence. Eventually, at the council of Trent, the Catholic Church formed an index of literature which was forbidden to Catholics throughout the world. Included in this censor were any books that challenged traditional interpretations of the scripture.
Ironically, the traditional beliefs that Galileo opposed ultimately belonged to Aristotle, not to biblical exegesis. Pagan philosophy had become interwoven with traditional Catholic teachings during the time of Augustine. Therefore, the Church’s dogmatic retention of tradition was the major seat of controversy, not the Bible. It may also be noted that Pope Urban VIII was himself sympathetic to Galileo but was not willing to stand against the tide of controversy. In reality, the majority of persecution seemed to come from intellectual scientists whose monopoly of educational authority had been threatened. During Galileo’s time, education was primarily dominated by Jesuit and Dominican priests.
One of the most important aspects of Galileo’s “threat” to education is that he published his writings in Italian, rather than Latin, which was the official language of scholarship. Galileo was attempting to have his ideas accepted by common people, hoping that they would eventually filter into the educational institutions. Thus, Galileo was regarded as an enemy of the established scientific authorities and experienced the full weight of their influence and persecution.
In many ways, the historic controversy of creation vs. evolution has been similar to Galileo’s conflict, only with a reversal of roles. In the sixteenth century, Christian theism was the prevailing philosophy and the Catholic Church dominated the educational system. Those, like Galileo, who dedicated themselves to diligently search for truth found themselves at the unmerciful hands of the authorities whose theories they threatened. In the twentieth century, however, the philosophy of naturalism has become dominant, and science occupies the position of influence. Again, we note that the majority (regardless of whether it is right or wrong) will persecute those who dare to dispute their “traditional” theories; today the questionable theory of evolution is being challenged.
The lesson to be learned from Galileo, it appears, is not that the Church held too tightly to biblical truths; but rather that it did not hold tightly enough. It allowed Greek philosophy to influence its theology and held to tradition rather than to the teachings of the Bible. We must hold strongly to Biblical doctrine which has been achieved through sure methods of exegesis. We must never be satisfied with dogmas built upon philosophic traditions.
[Atheist Daniel Dennet likened flat-earthers to creations, however, the president of the Flat Earth Society is a Virginian man named Daniel Shenton. He believes in Evolution as well as Climate Change. See CROSS EXAMINED]
Mofo, again, knowledge is good, your hasty assumptions are not.
SIRZAP:
GIADDON: Of course, you are a non-believer. If you are intelligent enough, or at least knowledgeable about what I said, then you will understand what I’m saying. Nothing personal, just my opinion about you.
GOD is GOD, believe it or not. simple as that.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
GIADDON, you said:
“It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as God”
Amorphous means:
lacking definite form; having no specific shape; formless: the amorphous clouds.
of no particular kind or character; indeterminate; having no pattern or structure; unorganized: an amorphous style; an amorphous personality.
Don’t you see?
“To say that we cannot know anything about God is to say something about God; it is to say that if there is a God, he is unknowable. But in that case, he is not entirely unknowable, for the agnostic certainly thinks that we can know one thing about him: That nothing else can be known about him. Unfortunately, the position that we can know exactly one thing about God – his unknowability in all respects except this – is equally unsupportable, for why should this one thing be an exception? How could we know that any possible God would be of such a nature that nothing else could be known about him? On what basis could we rule out his knowability in all other respects but this one? The very attempt to justify the claim confutes it, for the agnostic would have to know a great many things about God in order to know he that couldn’t know anything else about him”
Norman Geisler & Paul Hoffman, editors, Why I Am a Christian: Leading Thinkers Explain Why They Believe (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2001), p. 54.
I’m surprised I had to point that out again.
EL_CHUPACABRA:
GIADDON, I will pose to you the same question that I did to Heretic: Is the cat alive or dead? And please note that the box is sealed and there is no way to see in or hear anything or have any sort of interaction with the box. There is also enough oxygen to last for several days. So after say 30 mins is the cat alive or dead?
CRAZY MOFO:
PAPA GIORGIO, the reason you and I cannot communicate is because you already accept that there is a god where I do not.
It just does not make any sense to me. Humans are animals, no other animal on the earth assembles and contemplates this like we do. God is just a term made up by humans. And if there is some sort of creator, wtf would it be? Certainly it would not be a human form right if you say it created humans.
I will tell you what god is, it is energy. Energy and matter in the universe. You go on and on talking about god this god that. Can you define god? Why would a being just create all this **** we have in the universe.
I know my method of arguing is weaker than yours, but that is because I’m just getting frustrated. You keep attacking my intelligence, when you are the high school dropout. I’m currently in college and I talk with my professors regularly about astronomy and philosophy. I also attend free night classes on astronomical events and up comings. Such as the alignment of Mars, which is coming up soon. But anyways I’m getting off track, so I’ll let you respond to what I presented you with.
ANDWARF CHIMES IN:
[ANDWARF QUOTES EL_CHUPACABRA] Giaddon I will pose to you the same question that I did to Heretic: Is the cat alive or dead? And please note that the box is sealed and there is no way to see in or hear anything or have any sort of interaction with the box. There is also enough oxygen to last for several days. So after say 30 mins is the cat alive or dead?
The act of not knowing does not affect the state of the cat!
I don’t know how many people there are in China, but that does not affect the amount that are actually there!
PREATOR ANTRAX:
[PREATOR ANTRAX QUOTES EL_CHUPACABRA] oh and one other thing for those of you who say that there cannot be an infinite cause for the creation of the universe you are quite wrong. There is a relatively new theory concerning time travel and the creation of the universe though i cannot recall the exact details, i think the book i read it in was called Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe. Something about at some point in time the universe creates itself in the past and ur left with the eternal question of which came first the chicken or the egg…i dunno i can’t remember ill try and dig up the book and get back to you
I think what you are referring to is Causal Time Loops. I’ve heard that they have been logically applied to the origin of the universe. Basically it goes like this; the cause of the universe is the effect in an infinite loop. Whilst this is difficult to comprehend it involves no logical fallacies. It is merely experience which brings us to believe that the effect is always caused, and never it’s own cause. It’s an interesting explanation, I really enjoy time-based philosophy, hence why I took a class in it. Causal Time Loops are an incredibly interesting concept. I’d encourage you all to read up on them, since they explore many concepts that are shown in sci-fi movies of today.
[PREATOR ANTRAX QUOTES PAPA GIORGIO] (he quotes my first “Contingent Being” example and then says….)
This argument only works if all premises are correct, and I can’t see any reason why you can’t deny these premises. Both ‘a’ and ‘b’ of P1 can be denied, although ‘b’ requires the introduction of causal time loops as I stated above. You can’t just post an argument and assume that it is correct, the logic is perfect, but the premises aren’t necessary and whilst that makes this argument cogent it doesn’t assure its validity.
KAIGUN:
[KAIGUN QUOTES CRAZY MOFO]I like the cat example, it produces the same problem we have here. We can’t prove there is or isn’t a creator. SO we must choose the most logical choice, and that is that there isn’t one. And don’t say but why is that the most logical choice? Because i’m not gonna repeat myself as I am forced to in almost every thread i’m sick of it, you know how I feel on this…
Ok, I won’t ask you why you think its the most logical choice. I will tell you that you blantantly wrong. It is not the most logical choice. To paraphrase Heretic, if neither side can adequately prove their case, then the most logical choice would not be to side with either.
I used to think I was an atheist, until I discovered the vast majority of atheists were atheists simply because it supposedly gave them justification for their prejudice against Christianity. I didn’t want to be associated with such hatred and ignorance. I don’t see how anyone who values logic and knowledge could blindly believe in anything, be it the existence of God, non-existence of God, love or anything else for that matter.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
No MOFO, the reason you and I cannot communicate is because you state things – over-and-over-again – that just aren’t true. I just showed you in my last post the many examples and misuses you make of the limited information you have. Another reason we cannot communicate is that you refuse to suspend your belief for a little while and look into the matter for yourself (I suggest the book by the atheist). I wasn’t born into a Christian family? I was an atheist (or thought I was) for many years. I didn’t want to stop or suspend my beliefs because this would mean changing my life style – or altering it. I grew up indoctrinated with evolution, all my parents watched were PBS shows and Carl Sagan by-lines.
However, when I started to actually look into the matter myself, I was told that the evidence was so massive that any “intellectual” person would be a fool not to accept it. Naturally I didn’t want to be a fool. So when I finally started to dig for this evidence, all I turned up were a lot of “soft” theories about how things “might have happened.” There was no solid empirical evidence for evolution. And after many years of reading, and looking into the matter, I found more evidence for the creation model and evidence for God’s existence than rock turning into man (the atheists Bible).
As far as God being energy, energy is not eternal; it was made at the Big Bang. Since matter and energy didn’t exist at one point, and everything that comes to exist has a cause, what caused the Big Bang?
MOFO, I am a high school drop out. And all I am pointing out is that you say stuff like, “the church taught a flat-earth/geocentric universe and this is one of the many reasons I don’t believe in God…”, which is what you imply implicitly and explicitly, you are basing your beliefs on something that isn’t true. And I have shown many of these you have brought up in your repertoire of “evidences” you use for, a) evolution; and b) evidences you use against God. I am not attacking you as much as I am challenging you to see that you have accepted a worldview not based on evidence, logic, or rational/evidential prodding, but only on bias against anything metaphysical. You, are a philosophical materialist, a naturalist by choice, not by evidence.
Once you realize this, you may wish to look into the matter more deeply, for yourself, not because Papa GiorgioG says so. What college do you go to (what area), I bet there may be a creationist professor that teaches there that I can find for you (PM me).
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
ANTRAX, are you a contingent being? How could this be denied?
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
ANTRAX, are you a contingent being? How could this be denied?
I posted this on my Facebook (to the right) and TONY B made the following comment:
That’s not even a little bit true. The Lord rebuke you for, brother in Christ, for equating everyone on “the Left” as atheists. People vote Democrat or Republican for a variety of reasons, economic, social, political, etc. Most Christians aren’t even aware of the news item your meme mentions; are they atheists also? I voted Independent and Republican my entire life until Trump came along because I took the book of James seriously. Did you know the Bible says to mark those who cause division? Have you considered that you may have crossed the line into political idolatry? Respectfully, no man can serve two masters; whose words and methods do your words reflect?
Firstly, TONY B ascribed to me something not in the graphic nor anything I said. It reminded me of Dick Durbin doing the same when Bret Baier mentioned the DNC removing God from the platform.
… Secular members were asked to identify their political persuasion, with 29 percent selecting “Democratic” and 36 percent selecting “progressive/liberal.” While that totals 65 percent, 21 percent selected Independent. On the flip side, only 1 percent identified as Republicans, with 3 percent selecting “Socialist/Marxist” and 3 percent selecting “Green.”
As the Democrat Party lurches more Leftward in their positions, on writer comments on why it may be this way (I will emphasize) – Washington Examiner Archived:
… Given the values and beliefs held dearest by the Democratic Party, it is hard not to agree. Radicals have gradually pushed it further left, which has also been shifting the goalposts of society in a more secular direction ever since the Progressive Era of the late 19th century.
The Democratic Party has fully embraced feminism and its natural descendent, the LGBT movement. Both have propagated the idea that men and women are indistinguishable. This justifies the party’s attempts to mix and match the roles of the two sexes in society. They are opposed to the Christian idea that man and woman were made distinct from yet complementary to one another.
By destroying marriage and the distinctions of the sexes, the party helped craft sexual activity into a vital expression of choice and liberation. These are the party values over the Christian practices of restraint and modesty. It has removed the incentives to abstain from sex and promoted perverse sexual behavior. In doing so, it has helped to normalize sexual depravity.
The idol of abortion also affirms the desire of the Democratic Party to exempt society from taking responsibility for its actions. By dehumanizing children as “parasites” and framing abortion as a right, the party encourages people to blame others for their decisions to have sex. This is despite Christians asserting that all life is sacred and formed by God upon conception.
Intersectionality has had a similar effect. The party has adopted a caste system based on what someone is or claims to be rather than who someone is or what they have done. This places those deemed “victims” over those deemed “oppressors,” while Christians view all humans as made with equal value by God.
All of this derives from one source: pride. The Democratic Party lives and breathes on its prioritization of the self. …
So while all Democrats or Democrat voters are not “atheists” or God haters, neither are a majority of Muslims Jihadists. In a short, spliced up version of the must watch OG video, Raheel Raza discusses the non-violent aspect s of the Muslim faith that support the inner circle of Jihadists. Whether knowingly [intending to] or not.
The same can be said of moderate to even blue-dog Democrats (almost non left in the Party, BTW). Dave Rubin, once of the Young Turks, has for years noted how Bill Maher is evolving, but, all the stuff he complains about on the Left is empowered by who he votes for.
So Bill would be in that outer ring. And when Tony votes Democrat, he is as well. Tony may be “pro-life,” believe in the historicity of Christianity and all the benefits that the Judeo-Christian worldview offers, etc. But all that s shown to not be in fact what he believes when he puts a ticket in for Democrats. (Related video, related post to the Prager vs. Maher thingy.)
And remember, we are talking about the base of the parties. Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell — even though libertarians, always voted Republican. Because that is where their ideas had the most power and influence … at the root to affect the larger party. And here we are, small government freshman class of GOP and thinkers. Trump has gotten more small government ideas into mainstream and legislation [de-legislation] than Reagan ever did. Awesome.
And concern about killing Christians and the martyrdom in the world of Christians almost fully resides on the right. Why? Because we are packed full of Christians. Or those professing such. More than the atheist Left.
Here’s the full study on this topic from my verse by verse teaching through Romans: Why God Hardens Hearts: Romans 9:17-24This is my best understanding of this topic and I think that it fits really well with a wide variety of Scripture that speaks to the issue. For a fuller defense of my own view please see the video I have linked above. My website https://BibleThinker.org
In a good conversation about Pharoah’s hardened heart, although not in alignment with what I was asking at “SOTO 101” Discussion thread, I got a response to this by MARK H. Here is the convo thus far:
MARK H. Pharaoh stiffened his heart first?
Nope, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart first…Exodus 7:3.
Pharaoh only ‘repented’ because of the plagues God sent upon him and Egypt, God raised Pharaoh up for one reason and one reason only, to show His power and to make His name to be declared throughout the world.
RELIGIO-POLITICAL TALK (RPT): “But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart” Future tense… A strict Calvinist would say God was looking down the corridors of time [a bit of sarcasm there] and seeing the after FX of Pharaohs choices and God allowing and hardening that resolve.
MARK H. Religio-Political Talk (RPT) I believe God hardened Pharaohs heart first. This is what Paul’s argument is in Romans. God could have shown him mercy by softening his heart but He sovereignly chose to harden him so He could display His power and wrath by destroying Egypt. Potter and the clay.
RELIGIO-POLITICAL TALK (RPT): LONG COMMENT
POTTER & CLAY
Also, don’t forget what was said of Israel a few verses later to be able to choose… 𝐼𝑁 𝑂𝑇𝐻𝐸𝑅 𝑊𝑂𝑅𝐷𝑆, keep reading for Scripture to explain Scripture:
“This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: “Go down to the potter’s house, and there I will give you my message.” So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel” (Jer. 18:1–6).
[CALVINISTS STOP AT VERSE 6]
“If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it. “Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts’” (Jer. 18:7–12).
Some Calvinistic scholars attempt to disassociate this text with Paul’s use of the analogy in Romans. For instance, James White writes, “Where is there a discussion of vessels of honor and dishonor in Jeremiah 18? Where is there a discussion of vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy? There is none.”[1] Only someone set on dismissing human responsibility would be unwilling to acknowledge the clear connection. Richard Coords explains:
The vessels of honor can be seen in God’s fashioning to “bless” (v. 10), “build,” and “plant” (v. 9), while the vessels of dishonor can be seen in the fashioning to “uproot,” “pull down” and “destroy” (v.7) including “fashioning calamity” and “devising a plan against” (v. 11), which is also consistent with the Jewish hardening described in Romans chapter 9 and at Romans 11:25.[2]
Paul is not oblivious to the need of the clay to respond to the expressed will of the Potter, as Paul draws upon this analogy again in his letter to Timothy:
“Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work” (2 Tim. 2:20–21).
Clearly, the biblical authors speak of the clay as if it is able to respond (and thus be held responsible) to the will of the Potter. The vessel must “cleanse himself” so as to be “useful to the Master,” which clearly illustrates that Paul does not necessarily intend to remove man’s part in the process by way of this kind of analogy.
God, a patient and trustworthy Potter who genuinely loves the hardened clay (Rom. 9:1–2; 10:1, 21), has remade some of it to be used for “noble purposes,” such as proclaiming the inspired truth to the lost world. The rest of the lump, still genuinely loved by the Potter despite their turning to other gods (Hos. 3:1), is used to bring about the ignoble purpose of crucifixion and the grafting in of other vessels for redemption (Rom. 11:25). All the while, the Potter is holding out hope for the spoiled lump to turn from its evil and be cleansed through repentance and faith (Rom. 11:11–23).
[1] James White, The Potter’s Freedom (Amityville, NY: Calvary Press, 2000), 225.
[2]Richard Coords, “Jeremiah 18:6,” Examining Calvinism, web page; accessed 08 June 2015.
Take note that PAUL would have been familiar with Isaiah 29:16-19, which as I see it, was a “Messianic prophecy” fulfilled in Jesus and Paul’s discussion of Israel’s true believing remnant:
You have turned things around, as if the potter were the same as the clay. How can what is made say about its maker, “He didn’t make me”? How can what is formed say about the one who formed it, “He doesn’t understand what he’s doing”? Isn’t it true that in just a little while Lebanon will become an orchard, and the orchard will seem like a forest? On that day the deaf will hear the words of a document, and out of a deep darkness the eyes of the blind will see. The humble will have joy after joy in the LORD, and the poor people will rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. (Isaiah 29:16–19, CSB)
THAT BEING SAID, if you come at Scripture with a systematic, I can understand your viewpoint … if you believe in the T, the U, and the I… then every one’s “hard heart” is ultimately by God’s design. Unless He unconditionally through irresistible grace changed your heart by a miracle — against your will. [I add that last part is because of Ronnie W. Rogers. Because of “total depravity “, any good response to God is impossible… our will would not allow for it, so it must be “disallowed” to be saved. Not by the Gospel message, but through the work of God long before you were born… nothing you “responded to.”]
IN OTHER WORDS, if you believe all that…. then yes, each time his heart was hardened, by God or himself, it was God anyways.
However, I enjoyed this Jewish commentary, and, my favorite part is this: “However, as Luzzatto implies, the situation is never permanent” (excerpted below). As Romans agrees and emphasizes… which Calvinism struggles with acknowledging – without breaking apart the smooth flow of 9-11.
… A number of classical sources deal with this question, including the Rabbinic commentary Exodus Rabbah, which observes a critical detail: Exodus 9:12 is the first time that the Torah tells us that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but we see evidence of Pharaoh impacting his own heart five times earlier in this portion. Twice (Exodus 7:13 and Exodus 22) in response to Moses’ challenges and requests, the Torah tells us, his heart “hardened.” And three times after that (Exodus 8:11, Exodus 15 and Exodus 28), we’re told that Pharaoh “made his heart heavy.”
Five times Pharaoh turned away from Moses’ call and the suffering of the Israelites. Five times he made his own heart less and less supple and soft. As such, Rabbi Simon ben Lakish claims in Exodus Rabbah, a collection of Midrash compiled in the 10th or 11th century (scholars are unsure of the exact date), “Since God sent [the opportunity for repentance and doing the right thing] five times to him and he sent no notice, God then said, ‘You have stiffened your neck and hardened your heart on your own…. So it was that the heart of Pharaoh did not receive the words of God.’”
In other words, Pharaoh sealed his own fate, for himself and his relationship with God.
As the 18th-century Italian philosopher Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto wrote, “Our external actions have an effect on our inner feelings. We have more control over our actions than our emotions, and if we utilize what is in our power, we will eventually acquire what is not as much in our power.”
This is true in both directions. When we make the choice to turn away from suffering, when we engage in the action of walking away from others’ pain, we impact our inner life — our own heart is hardened, we become estranged from the divine and from our own holiest self. True, it’s scary to look that pain in the eyes, and then to grapple with the feelings of responsibility it might engender in us. But there’s a cost to that turning away.
However, as Luzzatto implies, the situation is never permanent. Even when you’ve turned away from others and toward your own self-interest to the point that you can no longer hear the still small voice whispering in your direction. Even then, the gates to the divine — and to ourselves — are always open. As the Talmud (Brachot 32b) teaches in the name of Rabbi Elezar, “From the day on which the Temple was destroyed, the gates of prayer have been closed… But though the gates of prayer are closed, the gates of weeping are not closed.”
We can do the work of goodness in the world. It will change us. And when we’re finally ready to let our heart break open, the gates will be there, ready to receive us.
I will clip 1st the actual Scripture, then rewrite it as a Calvinist must see it (if they follow their systematic logically):
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, and yet they testify about me. But you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life. (John 5:39–40, CSB)
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, but there is no salvation in the book called the Bible unless I irresistible and effectually called you to believe… the Gospel is powerless to effectually save you, and yet they testify about me. But I have not elected you for effectual salvation before the foundation of the world so that you can not irresistibly come to me so that you may have life. (John 5:39–40, Augustinian/Calvinistic determinism – RCSB or HCBV – you choose)
To be clear, Jesus did not say, “I refused to give you life so that you would come to me.” Again, Jesus was not saying, “you refuse to believe because I and the Father rejected you before the foundation of the world and are withholding the grace you need to believe,” which is the necessary implication of the Calvinistic doctrine.
I think I should write a Bible version. 😆 The Revised Calvinistic Standard Bible. The RCSB! Or the HCBV: The Honest Calvinist Bible Version.
If determinism is true then either God is evil and the author of evil or all talk of good and evil, of praise and blame, of moral responsibility, and of justice is meaningless and incomprehensible with reference to God. That is, if God can cause or determine evil and yet remain good, and if God can punish those who do exactly and only what He has meticulously caused and determined them to do and yet remain just, then we have no idea who God is or what He might or might not do or what Scripture could possibly mean when it calls Him “good” and “just.” (Günther H. Juncker, “The Dilemma of Theistic Determinism”)
So, on my Facebook, I posted the following statement:
This actually garnered some attention, some of which I will note below, as, it led to me unfriending someone [PETER DH] because he refused to engage in conversation. Part of the reason he refused was surely a pride issue. Showing that there was no self reflection on his own narcissistic tendencies. [I am using specific language here that will become apparent as you read along.]
However, first I feel I must explain the above. Here is an adapted response to a friend, TODD, whom I would wish to emulate in conversation, unlike PETER.
I do not think people understand, or should I say, follow TULIP to it’s logical end. Calvin did, and Piper and many others have. While they use [warp] language to try and skirt the issue, they would rather bring God’s nature low and introduce not mysteries into theology, but philosophical contradictions. So, God ends up being the author of evil and man has no accountability. He can do no other. Why… not because of mother nature – that would be GAIA paganism. Our nature is because of God [in Calvinism/TULIP]. Romans says we have no excuse… this seems like the perfect one to me.
Again, I honestly do not think ppl understand TULIP. Nor do I think they understand my quoting of Calvin and others. They all think salvation [and damnation] are 100% God’s choice, and 0% mans [as in humankind]. Calvin even taught that Adam and Eve did not have free will. So, Piper, White, Calvin, etc., etc. say that. Not me. I am merely passing on how founders and theologians define it. Again, Wayne Grudem doesn’t even think we pray real – free – prayers.
💥Total Depravity: Sin controls every part of man. He is spiritually dead and blind, and unable to obey, believe, or repent. He continually sins, for his nature is completely evil. We do not believe in mother nature. [adapted from MacArthur] This condition of man is by God’s design. 💥Unconditional Election: God chose the elect solely on the basis of his free grace, not anything in them. He has a special love for the elect. God left the rest to be damned for their sins. [ALSO TRUE: Unconditional Reprobation – which is counter to God’s holiness.] 💥Irresistible Grace: Saving grace is irresistible, for the Holy Spirit is invincible and intervenes in man’s heart. He sovereignly gives the new birth, faith, and repentance to the elect. PPL have to be ontologically changed [given a new heart] first in order to say, “I had a bad heart” [They cannot -on Calvinism’s account- ask for one.]
This is why Calvinism has created second category of many ideas that muddy the water of the simple Gospel: Calvinism requires..
2 types of love expressed by God
2 types of grace via God
2 callings from God
2 wills of God
ETC
“Not one drop of rain falls without God’s sure command.” (Calvin)
“God by his secret bridle so holds and governs (persons) that they cannot move even one of their fingers without it accomplishing the work of God much more than their own.” (Calvin)
In order to understand this better, theologians have come up with the term “compatibilism” to describe the concurrence of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. — John Hendryx
John Hendryx is the creator and editor of Monergism . com). This quote from an article at Hendryx’s site was sent from Phil Johnson to Leighton Flowers during a back n forth on Twitter.
Viewing man from a compatibilist perspective means that while fallen man freely chooses to sin, he cannot freely choose to believe in the Gospel unless God gives him a new nature and past that assures he will “freely choose” to exercise faith in Christ; however, in either state, man cannot choose to do other than he did choose because while freely choosing, he has no salvific choice.
It is God’s choice, call, and changing a person to say yes, irresistibly. So, there is no “offer,” there is only force – for the believer and for the damned.
Now, the person I responded to regarding this, someone different that PETER DH, is someone who can feel obliged to disagree, respond, challenge, and the like. Knowing we are still both lovers of Christ — we just disagree with each others theology [and philosophy] of soteriology…. and the working out of God’s character via TULIP.
I myself believe like article three of the Baptist Faith and Message creed says (pic to the right).
Unlike PETER DH, who came in accusing me of anti-Christian, Marxist, Narcissism and the persecution of the saints… Todd is much better at exchanges, and honestly, I wish to be more like him in such conversations. Todd is gracious and honest, and I am proud to know him — even if only what I term as a “cyber friend” — and battle crazy Leftists with him.
As an example of the crazy shit PETER DH said:
Stop persecuting Christians for faith in Jesus Christ alone. And be honest about yourself; you are no Christian but a narcissist who believes himself superior to everyone else.
And to some extent, the Bible calls everyone, especially those born again, to battle one’s pride. So he is partially right about that. But as you will see, PETER’s broad claims show how many in the “Reformed” tradition think they are elect-elect. Saying they are “humbled by the Doctrines of Grace, but are in fact scared to death [not all] to look down the “corridors of time” and bring statements to their logical conclusions.
Because, if theistic determinism is true, then thought and choice are mere illusions. Al Mohler speaks to this a bit in this article that I excerpt:
The diverse theories of determinism propose that our choices and decisions are not an exercise of the will, but simply the inevitable outcome of factors outside our control. As Scientific American explains, determinists argue that “everything that happens is determined by what happened before — our actions are inevitable consequences of the events leading up to the action.”
In other words, free will doesn’t exist. Used in this sense, free will means the exercise of authentic moral choice and agency. We choose to take one action rather than the other, and must then take responsibility for that choice.
This link between moral choice and moral responsibility is virtually instinctive to humans. As a matter of fact, it is basic to our understanding of what it means to be human. We hold each other responsible for actions and choices. But if all of our choices are illusory — and everything is merely the “inevitable consequence” of something beyond our control, moral responsibility is an exercise in delusion.
This is why books like “Anyone Can Be Saved” are written, to protect the Gospel message of Good News! I agree with the back cover description that says: “that any person who hears the gospel can be saved” – Amen and Amen! [a scan of my copy is to the right]:
Anyone Can Be Saved articulates a biblical-theological explanation of the doctrine of salvation in light of the rise of Calvinistic theology among Southern Baptist churches in the United States. Ten scholars, pastors, and leaders advocate for the ten articles of the Traditional Statement by appealing to Scripture, the Baptist Faith and Message, and a variety of biblical, theological, and philosophical writings. Although many books address the doctrine of salvation, these authors consciously set aside the Calvinist-Arminian presuppositions that have framed this discussion in western theology for centuries. The contributors are unified in their conviction that any person who hears the gospel can be saved, a view that was found among earlier Baptists as well as other Christian groups today.This book is not meant to be the final word on Southern Baptist soteriology, but is offered as a peaceable contribution to the wider conversation on the doctrine of salvation.
Here are some quotes that apply as well to Calvinism and “Reformed” thinking as well as the atheist, all of these are challenges “godly determined outcomes” in Calvinism:
Atheism—pure, unadulterated atheism…. The universe was matter only, and eternal Spirit was a word without a meaning. Liberty was a word without a meaning. There was no liberty in the universe; liberty was a word void of sense. Every thought, word, passion, sentiment, feeling, all motion and action was necessary [determinism]. All beings and attributes were of eternal necessity; conscience, morality, were all nothing but fate. This was their creed, and this was to perfect human nature, and convert the earth into a paradise of pleasure… Why, then, should we abhor the word “God,” and fall in love with the word “fate”? We know there exists energy and intellect enough to produce such a world as this, which is a sublime and beautiful one, and a very benevolent one, notwithstanding all our snarling; and a happy one, if it is not made otherwise by our own fault.
If what he says is true, he says it merely as the result of his heredity and environment, and nothing else. He does not hold his determinist views because they are true, but because he has such-and-such stimuli; that is, not because the structure of the structure of the universe is such-and-such but only because the configuration of only part of the universe, together with the structure of the determinist’s brain, is such as to produce that result…. They [determinists – I would posit any philosophical naturalist] want to be considered as rational agents arguing with other rational agents; they want their beliefs to be construed as beliefs, and subjected to rational assessment; and they want to secure the rational assent of those they argue with, not a brainwashed repetition of acquiescent pattern. Consistent determinists should regard it as all one whether they induce conformity to their doctrines by auditory stimuli or a suitable injection of hallucinogens: but in practice they show a welcome reluctance to get out their syringes, which does equal credit to their humanity and discredit to their views. Determinism, therefore, cannot be true, because if it was, we should not take the determinists’ arguments as being really arguments, but as being only conditioned reflexes. Their statements should not be regarded as really claiming to be true, but only as seeking to cause us to respond in some way desired by them.
J. R. Lucas, The Freedom of the Will (New York: NY: Oxford University Press, 1970), 114, 115.
One of the most intriguing aspects mentioned by Ravi Zacharias of a lecture he attended entitled Determinism – Is Man a Slave or the Master of His Fate, given by Stephen Hawking, who is the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge, Isaac Newton’s chair, was this admission by Dr. Hawking’s, was Hawking’s admission that if “we are the random products of chance, and hence, not free, or whether God had designed these laws within which we are free.”[1]In other words, do we have the ability to make choices, or do we simply follow a chemical reaction induced by millions of mutational collisions of free atoms?[2] Michael Polyni mentions that this “reduction of the world to its atomic elements acting blindly in terms of equilibrations of forces,” a belief that has prevailed “since the birth of modern science, has made any sort of teleological view of the cosmos seem unscientific…. [to] the contemporary mind.”[3]
[1] Ravi Zacharias, The Real Face of Atheism (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2004), 118, 119. [2] My own summation. [3] Michael Polanyi and Harry Prosch, Meaning (Chicago, IL: Chicago university Press, 1977), 162.
What merit would attach to moral virtue if the acts that form such habitual tendencies and dispositions were not acts of free choice on the part of the individual who was in the process of acquiring moral virtue? Persons of vicious moral character would have their characters formed in a manner no different from the way in which the character of a morally virtuous person was formed—by acts entirely determined, and that could not have been otherwise by freedom of choice.
Mortimer J. Adler, Ten Philosophical Mistakes (New York, NY: Touchstone, 1985), 154.
If we were free persons, with faculties which we might carelessly use or willfully misuse, the fact might be explained; but the pre-established harmony excludes this supposition. And since our faculties lead us into error, when shall we trust them? Which of the many opinions they have produced is really true? By hypothesis, they all ought to be true, but, as they contradict one another, all cannot be true. How, then, distinguish between the true and the false? By taking a vote? That cannot be, for, as determined, we have not the power to take a vote. Shall we reach the truth by reasoning? This we might do, if reasoning were a self-poised, self verifying process; but this it cannot be in a deterministic system. Reasoning implies the power to control one’s thoughts, to resist the processes of association, to suspend judgment until the transparent order of reason has been readied. It implies freedom, therefore. In a mind which is controlled by its states, instead of controlling them, there is no reasoning, but only a succession of one state upon another. There is no deduction from grounds, but only production by causes. No belief has any logical advantage over any other, for logic is no longer possible.
Borden P Bowne, Metaphysics: A Study In First Principles (originally published in 1882; London: Sampson Low, Searle & Rivington, 2005), 105.
How do leaders like Piper see God’s determining power that controls mankind? Here is a snippet from a book he was co-editor on:
Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ
“works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Prov. 16:4, NASB ).14 “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Eccl. 7:14, NIV).
John Piper and Justin Taylor, eds., Suffering and the Sovereignty of God (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 2006), 42.
Reflection on the subject has led me to agree with Ward. The compatibilist view seems (to quote Kant) a “wretched subterfuge”. Our free will is not truly free if determinism is still the bottom line.
There are major problems created by both Christian and atheist determinism. Firstly, there are two major casualties when we dispense with free will in the Calvinist framework. Love and justice.
Love is only truly love when freely given and freely received.
We are familiar with the fairy tale of the enchantress who puts the prince under a spell to make him ‘love’ her. But we know it’s not really love – it’s a delusion. Being manipulated in such a way is the opposite of love. By the same token, if God has pre-contrived our every desire so that we had no other option but to love our wife, love our children and to love him, then we are acting as little more than robots.
Likewise, any meaningful sense of justice is also lost under the deterministic view of God.
Can the person who commits a heinous offence be judged guilty of a crime if they were bound to act in such a way by the divine decree of God? Indeed, it could be argued that God himself is more culpable than they are. Equally, how can those God has predestined to hell be considered guilty of rejecting him, if they had no option to choose him?
Atheist determinists must face exactly the same problems and questions as their Calvinist counterparts. The truth is, it’s difficult to ground love, justice or any of the values that make life meaningful in a purely material universe. As Bertrand Russell, one of the 20th Century’s most renowned atheists, wrote: “Man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving…his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms.”
Cheery stuff. But the problem is even worse for atheist determinists than they realise. For, in such an accidental universe, how can they even trust in their own choice to be an atheist?
Losing reason
Most atheists I know pride themselves on the use of reason and evidence in their arguments against God. But, in a purely naturalistic worldview, all that’s really happening at a fundamental level is a variety of atoms bumping into other atoms, triggering electrochemical responses in the brain. What’s more, because the universe runs on the deterministic principle of cause and effect, all of those collisions were predetermined in the distant past. You and your beliefs are the product of a long chain of inevitable physical events.
So when you come to the conclusion that there is no God, that’s just the way your brain happens to end up fizzing. And when I claim that there is a God, that’s just the way my brain fizzes. But the atoms aren’t doing any reasoning. It’s all just a series of physical events – snooker balls bouncing off each other. They aren’t the least bit interested in the truth or falsity of the thoughts they are producing.
As CS Lewis wrote: “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”
I have more in another post, but this excerpt of CS LEWIS is needed here, and it deals with the opening quote at the “tippy-top” of the post from Günther H. Juncker:
“Divine Goodness”
Any consideration of the goodness of God at once threatens us with the following dilemma.
On the one hand, if God is wiser than we His judgement must differ from ours on many things, and not least on good and evil. What seems to us good may therefore not be good in His eyes, and what seems to us evil may not be evil.
On the other hand, if God’s moral judgement differs from ours so that our ‘black’ may be His ‘white’, we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say ‘God is good’, while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say ‘God is we know not what’. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If He is not (in our sense) ‘good’ we shall obey, if at all, only through fear—and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend. The doctrine of Total Depravity— when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing— may thus turn Christianity into a form of devil-worship.
The escape from this dilemma depends on observing what happens, in human relations, when the man of inferior moral standards enters the society of those who are better and wiser than he and gradually learns to accept their standards—a process which, as it happens, I can describe fairly accurately, since I have undergone it. When I came first to the University I was as nearly without a moral conscience as a boy could be. Some faint distaste for cruelty and for meanness about money was my utmost reach—of chastity, truthfulness, and self-sacrifice I thought as a baboon thinks of classical music. By the mercy of God I fell among a set of young men (none of them, by the way, Christians) who were sufficiently close to me in intellect and imagination to secure immediate intimacy, but who knew, and tried to obey, the moral law. Thus their judgement of good and evil was very different from mine. Now what happens in such a case is not in the least like being asked to treat as ‘white’ what was hitherto called black. The new moral judgements never enter the mind as mere reversals (though they do reverse them) of previous judgements but ‘as lords that are certainly expected’. You can have no doubt in which direction you are moving: they are more like good than the little shreds of good you already had, but are, in a sense, continuous with them. But the great test is that the recognition of the new standards is accompanied with the sense of shame and guilt: one is conscious of having blundered into society that one is unfit for. It is in the light of such experiences that we must consider the goodness of God. Beyond all doubt, His idea of ‘goodness’ differs from ours; but you need have no fear that, as you approach it, you will be asked simply to reverse your moral standards. When the relevant difference between the Divine ethics and your own appears to you, you will not, in fact, be in any doubt that the change demanded of you is in the direction you already call ‘better’. The Divine ‘goodness’ differs from ours, but it is not sheerly different: it differs from ours not as white from black but as a perfect circle from a child’s first attempt to draw a wheel. But when the child has learned to draw, it will know that the circle it then makes is what it was trying to make from the very beginning.
This doctrine is presupposed in Scripture. Christ calls men to repent—a call which would be meaningless if God’s standards were sheerly different from that which they already knew and failed to practise. He appeals to our existing moral judgement—‘Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?’ (Luke 12:57) God in the Old Testament expostulates with men on the basis of their own conceptions of gratitude, fidelity, and fair play: and puts Himself, as it were, at the bar before His own creatures—‘What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me?’ (Jeremiah 2:5.) …
CS Lewis | The Problem of Pain (Chapter 3)
What a horrible view of God if Calvinism is true. And it is this “if God’s moral judgement differs from ours so that our ‘black’ may be His ‘white’, we can mean nothing by calling Him good”, and this is the bottom line. It is not an antinomy to be accepted and inserted into Biblical truth. It is a lie from the pit of hell. AGAIN!
“If determinism is true then either God is evil and the author of evil or all talk of good and evil, of praise and blame, of moral responsibility, and of justice is meaningless and incomprehensible with reference to God. That is, if God can cause or determine evil and yet remain good, and if God can punish those who do exactly and only what He has meticulously caused and determined them to do and yet remain just, then we have no idea who God is or what He might or might not do or what Scripture could possibly mean when it calls Him “good” and “just.” (Günther H. Juncker, “The Dilemma of Theistic Determinism”)
Okay, back to this:
Here is how the conversation started with a friend (click to enlarge), I removed last names for privacy:
Now let’s shift gears to PETER and his train wreck of a response[s]. I am going to be lazy and just have picture of the discussion:
In the matter of a few minutes, PETER managed to post many comments on on other parts of my Facebook wall. This one almost every Christian could say “amen” to, but PETER has the rose colored glasses of Augustinian semi-Gnosticism in view here, so it is tainted to say the least:
However, I wanted to start with the comment I have the red arrow pointing to, because this was a test [in my mind] to see what kind of man I was dealing with. Someone who was honest and humble enough to admit when he was wrong – and so someone worth engaging with? Or was he like the prideful, not willing to admit when in error and correct it. I found out:
At this point PETER [I can only assume] saw the date of the publication of the above and the below source I quoted from. Why? because this was the next “timeline” out of his keyboard — at the bottom of this run:
This is when I knew I was dealing with someone note willing to pause and reassess his plain statement of the origin of the word. So I pressed a bit more…
So I made the point stronger, called out PETER to once again retract his statement, whether he was ignorant of the facts, or so blinded by his worldview (semi-Gnosticism) that his pride was narcissistically holding his tongue hostage. right after the above I posted this as well as part of the above:
He never showed any form of humility and acquiesced to the evidence. His election via Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace seemingly didn’t move the pendulum on the “T” in TULIP… at all. So I opted to unfriend him rather than he continuing to lie on my FB wall. What was/is the final outcome of the whole “debacle”? I will let PETER DH take us out:
Sean, You are not a Christian. Quit bothering people with anti-social behavior. This is bizarre.
There you have it, the elect-of-the-elect — able to sit in for God and read the heart of man.
APPENDIX
Todd (BTW, a rejection of TULIP is not a rejection of the 5-SOLAS. Just to be clear… it is in fact freeing faith [by faith alone] from deterministic principles. Piper says he literally cried for three days after realizing the implication of this idea. Sproul says it is a dreadful doctrine and was brough kicking into its paradigm. Calvin himself says “The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess.” – as a reminder, the GOSPEL is Good News)
This is a better explanation. God created us to respond to His calling – through nature [natural revelation], and special revelation [the Gospel call from Scripture, preachers, reading it, hearing it, etc.].
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Romans 10:14)
The story [not mine] of a person climbing an infinite rope to salvation, after tiring and saying “I cannot go on any longer” he is told to “let go and trust Jesus.” In reformed and Calvinistic presuppositions, even letting go is a work towards salvation. It is as if a guy in shark infested waters, almost drowning with said sharks nipping at his heels is thrown a life preserver that happens to catch him perfectly and he is drug to a boat. That person would never say “look how I saved myself.”
So salvation is 100% a work of God, but we are created to respond. TULIP says we cannot even do that. That makes God’s freedom/sovereignty a slave to gnosis as introduced [church history] by Augustine, a 10-year treasurer and member of Manny’s branch of Gnosticism. The Manichaeans represent the Persian branch of Gnosticism, and they taught both determinism and total depravity. However, their determinism was based upon dualistic mythology. (Hans Jonas, The Gnostic Religion [Beacon Press, 1958], 227.)
✂️ John Calvin admits that his theology was first clearly seen in Augustine. How did Augustine arrive at his views on election and predestination, which were not consistent with the churches teaching for the first 300 years? It should be noted that Augustine was himself a Gnostic Manichaean for nearly a decade before converting to Catholicism. Calvin wrote, “Augustine is so wholly with me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings.” John Calvin, “A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God.”
✂️ Loraine Boettner, writes: “It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation. They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the Gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination and perhaps also that of God’s absolute Foreknowledge. They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free will. It was hard for man to give up the idea that he could work out his own salvation. But at last, as a result of a long, slow process, he came to the great truth that salvation is a sovereign gift which has been bestowed irrespective of merit; that it was fixed in eternity; and that God is the author in all of its stages. This cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine, the great Spirit-filled theologian of the West. In his doctrines of sin and grace, he went far beyond the earlier theologians, taught an unconditional election of grace, and restricted the purposes of redemption to the definite circle of the elect.”
I [as do all non-Calvinist Christians] believe in predestination, but not unto salvation. Once saved by the living message of the word that can cut between soul and body, we look forward to the predestined/fulfilled promise of our Savior: “Not only that, but we ourselves who have the Spirit [born again already] as the firstfruits—we also groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for adoption, the redemption of our bodies.” (Romans 8 ) “In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed. The Holy Spirit is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.” (Ephesians 1:13). Think of all the analogies of Paul and a race:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27:
The Apostle Paul uses the metaphor of a race to emphasize the need for self-discipline and purpose in the Christian life. He writes, “Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way as to take the prize. Everyone who competes in the games trains with strict discipline. They do it for a crown that is perishable, but we do it for a crown that is imperishable. Therefore, I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight like I am beating the air. No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.”
Hebrews 12:1-2:
The author of Hebrews encourages believers to persevere in their spiritual race by looking to Jesus as the ultimate example. “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every encumbrance and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with endurance the race set out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”
Philippians 3:12-14:
Paul expresses his personal commitment to pressing on toward the goal of knowing Christ fully. “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been perfected, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.”
All races have a finish line, an end goal. That is what is predestined. Believers “wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies” (Romans 8:23). The full revelation of the believer’s adoption is freedom from the corruption present in the world. Being a member of God’s family includes the ultimate privilege of being like him (1 John 3:2) and being conformed to the glorious body of Christ (Philippians 3:21). This is part of the promised inheritance for all God’s children (Romans 8:16-17; Ephesians 1:13).
I am leading at a small group this next week, and this is my outline (PDF) for the group to read. What follows after that is an excerpt from a larger post I put up every Fourth of July.
On April 18, 1775, a British soldier ordered John Hancock and others to “disperse in the name of George the Sovereign King of England”; John Adams responded to him:
“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”
Most wars have a motto. The motto of World War II was “Remember Pearl Harbor.” The motto during the Texas war for independence was “Remember the Alamo.” The spiritual emphasis, directed towards King George III who violated God’s laws, gave rise to a motto during the American Revolution: “No King but King Jesus.” Many in the colonies used the phrase to reject the crown in conversation.
KING of the JEWS
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of King Herod, wise men from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star at its rising and have come to worship him.” (Matthew 2:1-2a)
Pilate also had a sign made and put on the cross. It said: Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews. Many of the Jews read this sign, because the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Aramaic, Latin, and Greek. So the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Don’t write, ‘The king of the Jews,’ but that he said, ‘I am the king of the Jews.’ ” Pilate replied, “What I have written, I have written.” (John 19:19-22)
So, for all time, there stands the truth of God that the Jews crucified their king! God has His way of mocking those who mock Him! In other words, God often fashions what is meant for evil and mockery and creates a good out of it to save those whom He loves: “You planned evil against me; God planned it for good to bring about the present result—the survival of many people” (Genesis 50:20)
At the beginning of the Passion week, the multitudes had cried, “Blessed is the King of Israel!” (John 12:13). Before Pilate, Christ himself bore witness to his “kingdom” (18:36–37). And now His royal title was affixed to His very “gallow.”
Zechariah 9:9 notes the humble form of transportation of the Savior: “… your King is coming to you; he is righteous and victorious, humble and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”
This humble nature of the Sovereign of the Universe is noted in Philippians 2:6-8
PART 1 OF PHIL
… who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited. Instead, he emptied himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. And when he had come as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death— even to death on a cross.
Now before the Passover Festival, Jesus realized that his hour had come to leave this world and return to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. [….] Because Jesus knew that the Father had given everything into his control, that he had come from God, and that he was returning to God, therefore he got up from the table, removed his outer robe, and took a towel and fastened it around his waist. Then he poured some water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to dry them with the towel that was tied around his waist.
Then he came to Simon Peter, who asked him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
Jesus answered him, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later on you will understand.”
Peter told him, “You must never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “Unless I wash you, you cannot be involved with me.”
This is another version [the original real story — I contend, told to Paul by the council in Jerusalem and rewritten under Devine guidance] of God disrobing divinity, and coming to die as ransom for us, like Philippians:
Many take the story [John 13:1-2; 4-8] as no more than a lesson in humility, quite overlooking the fact that, in that case, Jesus’ dialogue with Peter completely obscures its significance! But those words, spoken in the shadow of the cross, have to do with cleansing, that cleansing without which no one belongs to Christ, that cleansing which is given by the cross alone. As Hunter says, “The deeper meaning then is that there is no place in his fellowship for those who have not been cleansed by his atoning death. The episode dramatically symbolizes the truth enunciated in I John 1:7, ‘We are being cleansed from every sin by the blood of Jesus’.” *[1]
[1]Leon Morris, The Gospel according to John, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995), 544–545.
In Revelation however, we see a shift – Jesus’ “ride” even got upgraded yo! [“yo” — by Josh Goertzen]
Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and with justice he judges and makes war. His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on his head. He had a name written that no one knows except himself. He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God. The armies that were in heaven followed him on white horses, wearing pure white linen. A sharp sword came from his mouth, so that he might strike the nations with it. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty. And he has a name written on his robe and on his thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11-16).
This picture of a returning King is found in the 2nd half of that early church creedal statement we read in part via Philippians:
PART 2 OF PHIL
For this reason, God highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow— in heaven and on earth and under the earth— and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (2:9-11)
“I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.” I will declare the LORD’s decree. He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance and the ends of the earth your possession. You will break them with an iron scepter; you will shatter them like pottery.” [….] This is the declaration of the LORD to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.” The LORD will extend your mighty scepter from Zion. Rule over your surrounding enemies. Your people will volunteer on your day of battle. In holy splendor, from the womb of the dawn, the dew of your youth belongs to you.
“Look, the days are coming”—this is the LORD’s declaration— “when I will raise up a Righteous Branch for David. He will reign wisely as king and administer justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. This is the name he will be called: The LORD Is Our Righteousness.
In a book by C.S. Lewis called Prince Caspian, a girl named Lucy sees a lion named Aslan [representing Christ]. She hadn’t seen him in many years. He has changed; he is bigger.
“Aslan, you’re bigger,” she says. The lion can talk. He replies: “That is because you are older, little one.”
“Not because you are?”, she asks. “I am not. But every year you grow, you will find me bigger.”
So it is with Jesus in our lives. The more we trust him, the bigger he gets. Well, he doesn’t get bigger in a physical sense (Hebrews 13:8). But the more we know him, the bigger we know him to be.
In considering last week’s study on faithfulness and obedience….
QUESTIONS
to whom are we being faithful to?
A lowly humble figure or the Lion of Judah?
Is this dichotomy better viewed as-a-whole to meet the needs of the Body of Christ [His subjects] in our fallen world?
Our Healer and Counselor at times; and in others, the conquering King?
Is this Ruler one whom we can be faithful in?
When I say that I have faith in God, I mean that I place my trust in God based on what I know about him.[2] What do we know of our Messiah?
Is He trusted by His words and deeds?
We have a picture of a future ruler and King over a kingdom healed, how does Christ ruling from heaven NOW affect your understanding of your walk?
Your growth?
Your view of our promised land?
[2]“Certain words can mean very different things to different people. For instance, if I say to an atheist, ‘I have faith in God,’ the atheist assumes I mean that my belief in God has nothing to do with evidence. But this isn’t what I mean by faith at all. When I say that I have faith in God, I mean that I place my trust in God based on what I know about him.” — William A. Dembski and Michael R. Licona, Evidence for God: 50 Arguments for Faith from the Bible, History, Philosophy, and Science (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2010), 38.
During the 1700s, Philadelphia was an unpleasant place in the summer. Malaria and yellow fever were rampant. There were no cures and no known ways to prevent infection. Most people of means tried to escape the city, if they could.
But in the scorching summer of 1776, scores of our country’s leading men remained behind closed doors in Philadelphia. They were kept there by their work. And what a monumental work it turned out to be.
The 56 leaders, representing all 13 British colonies, signed a declaration that would birth a great nation and illuminate the very future of humankind. It’s this Declaration of Independence that Americans celebrate each July 4.
The document’s first job was to officially announce to the world that all the colonies had decided to declare themselves free and independent states, absolved from any allegiance to Great Britain. That was momentous enough for the years ahead, since in order to make good on that declaration, the colonies would have to defeat the British in a war that stretched until 1783.
But the greater meaning of the Declaration — then as well as now — is as a statement of the conditions that underlie legitimate political authority and as an explanation of the proper ends of government.
The signers proclaimed that political power would spring from the sovereignty of the people, not a crowned hereditary monarch. This idea shook Europe to its very core.
The Declaration appealed not to any conventional law or political contract but to the equal rights possessed by all men and “the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and nature’s God” entitled them.
What is revolutionary about the Declaration of Independence is not that a particular group of Americans declared their independence under particular circumstances. It’s that they did so by appealing to –and promising to base their particular government on — a universal standard of justice.
It is in this sense that Abraham Lincoln praised “the man who, in the concrete pressure of a struggle for national independence by a single people, had the coolness, forecast, and capacity to introduce into a merely revolutionary document, an abstract truth, applicable to all men and all times.”
Of course, it required another war to extend those rights to all Americans, but the fact that they were written down in the Declaration was crucial in 1865, in 1965 and remains so today as well.
“If the American Revolution had produced nothing but the Declaration of Independence,” wrote noted historian Samuel Eliot Morrison, “it would have been worthwhile.”
As Thomas Jefferson, lead author of the Declaration, put it in 1821, “The flames kindled on the 4th of July 1776, have spread over too much of the globe to be extinguished by the feeble engines of despotism; on the contrary, they will consume these engines and all who work them.”
Those flames, the flames of freedom and opportunity, continue to spread. That’s a truth worth celebrating on the Fourth — and all year ’round.
Even the Minutemen reflected strong religious involvement. While they are generally recognized for their exploits as a group, few today know many specifics about them. For example, these men who stood to fight for their liberties and defend their town were often groups of laymen from local congregations led either by their pastor or a deacon! Records even indicate that it was not unusual that following their militia drills they would go to church “where they listened to exhortation and prayer.”
The spiritual emphasis manifested so often by the Americans during the Revolution caused one Crown-appointed British governor to write to Great Britain complaining that:
If you ask an American who is his master, he’ll tell you he has none. And he has no governor but Jesus Christ.
Letters like this, coupled with statements like that delivered by Ethan Allen, and sermons like those preached by the Reverend Peter Powers (“Jesus Christ the King”), gave rise to a motto of the American Revolution. Most of us are unaware that the American Revolution even had a motto, but most wars do (e.g., World War II—”Remember Pearl Harbor”; the Texas’ war for independence—”Remember the Alamo”; etc.). The motto of the American Revolution was directed against King George III—considered the primary source of the conflict; for it was he who was arbitrarily, capriciously, and regularly violated “the laws of nature and of nature’s God.” The motto was very simple and very direct:
Trump is the only dictator I know of that has or is shrinking government.
Just to clarify for those reading this and not picking up what was just laid down. The larger the government the more control over the individual; the smaller the government the larger the individual. In other words, a dictator, fascist, “Pharoah” type would want a means to control the population more easily. In history we see this always as said “dictator” increasing government size, regulatory control, and the like. The opposite is happening under Trump.
Trump Becomes First Fascist In History To Reduce Size Of Government (BABYLON BEE):
WASHINGTON, D.C. — President Donald Trump has just become the first fascist in the history of humankind to use his despotic powers to reduce the size of the government.
While most other fascist leaders throughout history have used their power to increase the scope of government influence in their respective countries, Trump has broken with tradition to become the very first fascist with a focus on dismantling his own government’s overreaches.
“Only time will tell, but Trump must have something extremely nefarious up his sleeve if he’s doing his fascism by making government smaller,” said Lee Glyde-Jennings, who teaches several classes on the history of fascism at Harvard. “It’s entirely unlike every other fascism in history to this point — I’m just waiting to see how he’s going to wind up instituting a fascist dictatorship by carefully picking apart the government bureaucracy.”
“You know who else gave up power and was a fascist?” said Martyn Rogers, a Yale professor. “Hitler. Hitler was a fascist who gave up his power at the end of World War II. Be afraid of Trump. Be very afraid.”
At publishing time, several Democrats had also warned that Trump would soon start World War III by making peace with other nations.
What I wrote under the above picture I embedded on this sites FACEBOOK:
Trump is the only dictator I know of that has or is shrinking government. [Just to clarify for those reading this and not picking up what was just laid down. The larger the government the more control over the individual; the smaller the government the larger the individual. In other words, a dictator, fascist, “Pharoah” type would want a means to control the population more easily. In history we see this always as said “dictator” increasing government size, regulatory control, and the like. The opposite is happening under Trump.]
GUTFELD
So, let’s delve into this issue with some partial past posts of mine discussing the main issue I see between levels 1 and 2 and those of 3 and four. (So I am cutting the pyramid in half essentially.) Here is the main idea via an old post that originally appeared in August 2007 on my old blog, but that eventually got imported and updated to my .com:
…. Let us look at what we are told is suppose to be the political landscape if it were to be put into a line graph.
Really this is misleading. For one, it doesn’t allow for anarchy, which is a form of governance (or lack thereof). Also, it places democracy in the center… as if this is what one should strive for, a sort of balance. (The most popular — college level graph — is wrong and misleading as well):
However, the founding fathers wanted nothing to do with a democracy no matter how many times a New York Times editorialist or you’re teacher says we are in one:
James Madison (fourth President, co-author of the Federalist Papers and the father of the Constitution) Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general; been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.
John Adams (American political philosopher, first vice President and second President) Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.
Benjamin Rush (signer of the Declaration): “A simple democracy is one of the greatest of evils.”
Fisher Ames (American political thinker and leader of the federalists [he entered Harvard at twelve and graduated by sixteen], author of the House language for the First Amendment): “A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will provide an eruption and carry desolation in their way…. The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and the ignorant believe to be liberty.”
Governor Morris (signer and penman of the Constitution): “We have seen the tumult of democracy terminate as [it has] everywhere terminated, in despotism. Democracy! Savage and wild. Thou who wouldst bring down the virtous and wise to thy level of folly and guilt.”
John Quincy Adams (sixth President, son of John Adams [see above]): “The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.”
Noah Webster (American educator and journalist as well as publishing the first dictionary): “In democracy there are commonly tumults and disorders.. therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.”
John Witherspoon (signer of the Declaration of Independence): “Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.”
Zephaniah Swift (author of Americas first legal text): “It may generally be remarked that the more a government [or state] resembles a pure democracy the more they abound with disorder and confusion.”
The Founders obviously knew what a democracy was, which is why in Article IV, Section Four of the Constitution, it says:
The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government.
The following graph includes all political models and better shows where the political beliefs lie e.g., left or right is the following (take note, this graph is from a book I do not support nor recommend… but these visual insights are very useful):
In actuality, during WWII, fascism grew out of socialism, showing how close the ties were. I would argue that the New Left that comprises much of the Democratic Party today is fascistic, or, at least, of a closer stripe than any conservative could ever hope to be. I will end with a model comparing the two forms of governance that the two core values (conservatism/classical liberalism versus a socialist democracy) will produce. Before you view the below though, keep in mind that a few years back the ASA (American Socialist Association) on their own web site said that according to the voting record of United States Congressmen and Women, that 58 of them were social democrats. These are the same that put Hitler and Mussolini in power.
Which Do You Prefer?? Liberal Democrats want more government control, Conservative Republicans want less. In a discussion, I exemplified that minimally “fascism” is growth of government in this way:
[….]
To expand a bit on the Rummel book mentioned above… he shows that both the citizenry and free countries are dealt heavy hands and dedath in greater numbers as the government grows larger. Conservatives want to decrease governments size. Progressives want to increase the size of government.
Which is why I shake my head when I hear about people talking about the libertarian Koch Brothers influencing politics. They are for same-sex marriage as well as wanting to make government smaller, in other words, MORE CONSTUTUTIONAL. When people like billionaire coal magnate Tom Steyer gives millions of dollars to Democrats to increase the size of government, he is praised as a hero. The same goes for George Soros.
The bottom line is that leftist billionaires/millionaires who support more control by government over the affairs of men [like Tom Steyer, George Soros, Bill Gates, etc] are participating in the exponential growth in the chance of it’s citizenry to be killed in order to implement all these new legislative laws and powers that go along with the growth of government. By growth of government the ease to nationalize things becomes easier. Like Obama’s Harvard professor pointed out, above.
Here is a more Constitutional look (clip) at government:
So we see that there is a misunderstanding at the core that doesn’t account for the top half of the pyramid wanting a socialist form of government like Mussolini or Hitler set out to accomplish, versus, the “right” in America that wants a small government and voting brought back to the electorate through what the Constitution clearly enumerates in statehood.
So let us go through the bottom half a bit.
FIRSTLY, I cross out the JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY (JBS)and INFO WARS for a few reasons. I was heavily influenced by JBS through an old bookstore in North Hollywood back in the day. Lots of conspiracy books and VHS documentaries, yada-yada. While many authors and writers for JBS made great points and had insights into communism and the Left… there was a stream of conspiratorial views that I eventually rejected, and thus stopped following the society as a whole. I discuss this a bit in a chapter from my book:
In fact, even though these “conspiracy writers” may drop the ball on some historical facts and their connections, insights — like I said — are still admirable. For instance, some of the graphs I have already used above come from such a book: None Dare Call It Conspiracy, By GARY ALLEN. I wouldn’t recommend the book to a young mind just starting out in parsing good political theory from bad… but I would recommend it to someone who can rightly parse good history from bad…. as there is worthwhile thoughts to glean from such a book. Especially with the World Economic Forum topic and the George Soros‘ of the world.
And my site makes it plain I am no fan of Alex Jones and all he touches. Many on the right glom on to him as some sort of truth teller, when he is anything but. For instance, just one linked story from my site:
And I will admit I feel bad for conservatism proper that so many “of my people” follow such a clown. I also wish to not defend the tactics or actions taken by Patriot Prayer of Proud Boys… also in the bottom half of the pyramid. But I do not cross them out as may of their goals are maligned/distorted by the media and the left.
I also have some recent notes on this idea that the Left maligns everyone who is violent as “white supremists.” Here is my personal thoughts on the matter:
This has been bugging me for quite some time, and I wish to opine. Some here may know my biography a bit… but to catch you up a tad: Thirty-plus-years ago I was incarcerated a few times, mainly for 3-felonies. During my two longest stints in various L.A. County jail system (from Biscailuz, to H.O.J.J., to Super Max and Mira Loma – etc.). My first couple weeks in were a steep learning curve, as are most young persons. But in all my time in the system – about a year and a half – I never met a “white supremacist person of color.” Having met many actual Aryan Brotherhood members, Nazi Low Riders, white pride guys, and other white purists (like an Odinite I met), and the like. Not one was Mexican, Black, Indian (from India), yada-yada.
I also met many racist cult members other than the ones already mentioned who were likewise part of prison gangs, like: Black Guerilla Family (BGF), Barrio Azteca, Mexican Mafia (La Eme), and the like. While there is some cooperation between Whites and Hispanics at times in jail… I slept in what was called the “wood pile.”
I loved [even then] to talk politics and categorize things. The reason, for instance, I was removed from Biscailuz detention center was in my dorm I was asking all the Hispanic, Blacks, and White’s their set or gang affiliation or one’s they knew of. I had a very long list on two double sided legal paper notepad. Well… One guy said I was doing this because I was an undercover “po-po.” THAT caused a BIG problem, and I was removed before I was beaten to a pulp.
In my very long list – ironically confiscated by the Sheriff’s removing me – and although I am sure the Sheriff gang unit were/are aware of them all, maybe I got a sub-set they were not. So, the accusation was a self-fulfilling prophecy by the guy who initially accused me. Lol.
All that to say, studying quite a few religiously racist cults years later and racist origins/history…. I have never, ever met a non-white white supremacist.
Ever.
The cults I have spent some time investigating are [to name a few]:
Christian Identity [defunct for the most part];
the KKK [5,000 members];
British Israelism;
the Nation of Islam [NOI];
Black Hebrew Israelites;
and the Five Percent Nation of Gods and Earths
My studies have included getting original source materials from the founders of these movements, and watching copious amounts of members descriptions of their beliefs.
And in all that, the only time I hear about “white supremacist people of color” is from the “new-new” Democrats and the Left.
I have met and studied a lot about anti-Semitism in my time in jail and my studies. Anti-Semites come in all colors, creeds, and historical movements…
But never a black or brown white supremacist.
~ RPT
So the origin of the Proud Boys (PB) is a bit more innocent than they are painted to be. That doesn’t mean that people in any of these groups do not have people in them (like any group) that abuse the stated goals of these groups. And the “boys” [in America at least], are small government advocates. As are John Birchers as well.
Which brings me to the upper half of the chart. Three and four.
I note on my site, after years of studying racist movements, that all these groups (black or white) almost always vote democrat. Here, for instance is another excerpt from a post of mine detailing this:
First, in the broad sense this has to be true… that is… somewhere in this nation I am sure a racist supports Donald J. Trump. Even if we assume the Klan all voted in unison, he would have gotten 8,000 votes at most! Nationwide.
HOWEVER, as you will see, even the above hypothetical is more complicated than most assume it to be. Let’s just clear the air first on this past charge of Trump not disavowing David Duke (a “famous” racist and past KKK leader) during the run-up-to the nomination: Trump clearly disavowed David Duke’s endorsement. As we will see, the truth about David Duke is more complicated than we often hear. Okay, moving on.
After Trump won the election the media and Hollywood types as well as comedians and Democrat Senators and Representatives all started saying there was a backlash of old-racist-white-men that came out in force and voted for Trump. This just isn’t the case. You can see from just a few of the bullet points from my “Blacks, Hispanics and Gays are Sexist, Xenophobic, Homophobic, Racist” post that this attack on American voters is just a maligning of each and everyone of those peoples character:
…Thirteen percent of Muslims voted for Trump, triple the amount that voted Romney, are they are Islamophobic, bigoted, xenophobic, and racist?
Eight percent of blacks voted for Trump, seven percent more than Romney — not to mention the black men and women who didn’t vote for the president at all in a higher percentage. These same men and women previously voted twice for Obama. These persons of color… if I understand my detractors correctly, are racist bigots?
A higher percentage (almost 30%) of Hispanics voted for Trump, more in fact than voted for Romney. These Hispanic and Latino men and women, like the others, are xenophobic, bigoted, and racist?
One hundred-and-ninety-four counties that voted for Obama once switched to GOP in the 2016 election. And, two-hundred-and-nine counties that voted for Obama twice switched to GOP. Many of these people are union members as well as life-long Democrats. Am I now being told that these Democrats who voted for Obama are: racist. sexist, intolerant, xenophobic, homophobic, Islamophobic, racist, bigoted?
So you can see from the above and the graphic below that the people who really pushed Trump into the “win” section of the electoral count were minorities and voters who previously voted for Obama either once or both times prior to voting for Trump.
Two of the above four racist cults are both telling their followers to vote for Trump… the KKK and the Nation of Islam. Christian Identity as a cohesive movement is all but dead… and the 5% when they do vote always vote Democrat. IN FACT they all primarily vote Democrat.
A quick history point that is important for the next paragraph:
After the triumph of the civil rights movement and the introduction of a series of civil rights laws, the Klan broke up into various subgroups. Previously these KKK members were Democrats and they continued being so after.
“…virtually every significant racist in American political history was a Democrat.” — Bruce Bartlett, Wrong on Race: The Democratic Party’s Buried Past (New York, NY: Palgrave MacMillan, 2008), ix;
“…not every Democrat was a KKK’er, but every KKK’er was a Democrat.” — Ann Coulter, Mugged: Racial Demagoguery from the Seventies to Obama (New York, NY: Sentinel [Penguin], 2012), 19.
People do not realize why these groups, especially the KKK, vote Democrat. For instance, out of the four leaders in the “white-power” movement (the KKK subculture) with the most followers, three told their peeps to vote Democrat (Actually, then it was them telling their followers to vote for Obama in 2008).
Here you see some higher ups in this white racist movement telling their people (3-of-the-4) to vote Democrat for the election in 2008:
➤ Tom Metzger: Director, White Aryan Resistance; Career Highlights: Was Grand Dragon of Ku Klux Klan in the 70s; won the Democratic primary during his bid for Congress in 1980… ➤ Ron Edwards: Imperial Wizard, Imperial Klans of America; Career Highlights: Sued in 2007 by the Southern Poverty Law Center for inciting the brutal beating of a Latino teenager; building the IKA into one of the nation’s largest Klan groups by allowing non-Christians to join. ➤ Erich Gliebe: Chairman, National Alliance; Career Highlights: Turning white-power record label, Resistance Records, into a million-dollar-a-year business juggernaut; an 8-0 record as a professional boxer under the nickname, “The Aryan Barbarian.” ➤ Rocky Suhayda: Chairman, American Nazi Party; Career highlights: Being widely quoted bemoaning in the fact that so few Aryan-Americans had the cojones of the 9/11 hijackers: “If we were one-tenth as serious, we might start getting somewhere.”
Yes, most racist groups — INCLUDING THE KKK — voted for a black nominee.
The next question should be, Why?
Reason One One reason is that these racist white groups are typically socialists. And socialism is a political system that wants the government to run health-care, business, increase central power, etc. Here is a most basic graph of this concept (see to the right – click the graph to go to my combined post on the matter).
“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” — Hitler
John Toland, Adolph Hitler: The Definitive Biography (New York, NY: Anchor Books, 1976), 223-225.
Reason Two Another reason a lot of racist whites vote Democrat is they are very poor and use heavily the social services they support ideologically. This was even evident when less than the typical 80% that vote straight Democrat still voted straight Democrat in their respective states but did not vote for Obama.
The other Black Nationalist cults vote heavier [percentage wise] Democratic.
This year is different. You have both Louis Farrakhan telling his followers to vote for Trump, and you have more people in the disjointed KKK telling their people to vote for him. Why this change? I think it is because he has many similar views on issues with Bernie Sanders, as an example,
Forty-four percent of Sanders supporters surveyed said they would rather back the presumptive GOP nominee in November, with only 23 percent saying they’d support Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton. And 31 percent said would support neither candidate in the likely general election match-up. (THE HILL)
Keep in mind those are voters in the state that put Sander’s into the Senate!
Here is the kicker though regarding the Nation of Islam (NOI). This cult, unlike the KKK, is VERY structured under a single leader. So what Farrakhan says is followed “religiously” by his adherents. Whereas, in the KKK, these leaders are not looked to in the same way Farrakhan is, as some sort of “messianic” figure. So you might have slightly more vote for Trump in the Klan on the recommendation of their leaders. This is different in the structure of the Nation of Islam, the percentages would be almost unanimous in their “lock-step.”
Many will continue to vote straight Democrat the rest of the ticket, in all groups mentioned.
“Racists Vote Republican,” or, “Republican’s Are Old Racist White Men” may be a convenient (actually evil) political narrative to scare a few voters away from the GOP, surely. But the maligning of every Republican nominee since Nixon just is not factually true.
DON’T accept the comparison. Take their arguments and return them packaged in a nice little bow.
Editor’s Aside:
Democrats want to fundamentally change America. I don’t love my wife if I want to fundamentally change her. Black Life Matters protesters teach their children to burn American flags or march down the street CHANTING “What do we want?!” “Dead Cops!” “When do we want them?!” “NOW!” They argue America was founded on nothing but slavery and greed. Hillary Clinton backed this group even going as far as far as saying (at the NAACP) that “systemic racism” needs to be eliminated. Months later calling Americans all racists: “I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police. I think unfortunately too many of us in our great country jump to conclusions about each other and therefore I think we need all of us to be asked the hard questions ‘why am I feeling this way?’”
Democrats think I am an imperialist white supremacist Christian cisgender capitalist heteropatriarchal male. Apparently however, these many demographic changes across the board [noted above] seem to agree that Trump’s slogan was acceptable, “Make America Great Again.”
One reason many of these hate groups (black and white) are voting for Trump is for border control. A) There is an animosity towards illegal aliens for racist reasons, and B) reasons related to economics as well. A great example would be this video “CHICAGO’S INNER-CITY POOR BLACK COMMUNITY ABANDONING OBAMA’S LIBERAL AGENDA“
To continue this point, one woman said this:
A resident of the Austin community, Jean Ray, says after 40 years of Democratic party control over the black community, the policies “are hurting,” and if there were Republicans willing to do the right job in her community, she would vote for them. (More at BREITBART)
So a good reason that black racist groups would have voted Trump includes practical economic concerns, i.e., jobs. Which is why we saw a 7% jump in blacks voting for the Republican candidate… but most likely even they voted Democrat the rest of the ticket.
Reason Three They HATE (H-A-T-E) Israel, and this is a reason they tend to support Democrats. For instance, on his YouTube, David Duke endorsed Charles Barron for Congress (video on the left). Another endorsement for Hillary was from a KKK leader here in California (right video).
So attributing racism to the GOP is silly, because as a whole, the almost 8,000 KKK members nation wide vote Democrat. AS DO ALL THE OTHER RACIST CULTS IN AMERICA (*booming megaphone affect in a cave*). NOT TO MENTION where all the hub-bub is when all these hate groups vote for Democrats in years past?
In other words, WHY is it only “newsworthy” when they vote for Republicans and not for Democrats?
I smell something fishy here.
I can continue, but this post is already long enough. On the racial issues, I suggest my page entitled: U.S. RACIAL HISTORY. This page deals with the supposed party switch by racist Democrats to Republicans, slavery, American Indian narratives, some VERY PROUD BLACK HISTORY in our country… and the like.
Recap Again, let’s recap for clarity some of my reasons white racist/nationalists cults vote Democrat:
They are typically socialist in their political views, and thus support the welfare state for personal financial reasons (poor) and ideological reasoning (socialist); or for the reason that it is a way of controlling minorities (racist reasoning). A modern plantation so-to-speak; There is a shared hatred for Israel and supporting of groups wanting to exterminate the Jews (Palestinians for instance).
This is why a majority STILL supported Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump. She is a socialist at heart, wants a big welfare state, and does not like Israel as much as Trump, who has kids practicing the Jewish religion. Thee ONLY issue a racist could want to vote for Trump on is his immigration policies… hardly a racist position. It has only now become an issue of bigotry and racism because the Left has moved the goal post in the use of language. Racists no longer means “genetically superior,” rather, it mean you disagree with a Democrat and/or hurt their feelings. Otherwise, these people would be RACISTS!
So the bottom line is that the top half of the pyramid has more in common with Leftist ideals of a larger government, and should be in a pyramid that includes ANTIFA and the beliefs of Michael Loadenthal.
So, as far as I can tell there are complete idiots at the FBI that follow the bad thinking of places like the Southern Poverty Law Center that further polluting the ideas that are soo easily refuted.
Here are just a couple examples of how the Left distorts reality:
THE SPLC! An example of this infectious disease
The Southern Poverty Law Center bills itself as a watchdog of hate groups. But is this just a cover for its true aims? Journalist and author Karl Zinsmeister explains.
It is SHOCKING that the FBI works with this political cult!
MORE SPLC RADICALISM
GAY PATRIOT [now defunct, sadly] notes the radical attacks from Leftist organizations:
The Southern Poverty Law Center was, perhaps, once a civil rights organization. Then extremists spent its core assets – in this case, SPLC’s good word and reputation – until they were gone. SPLC now routinely mislabels conservative and/or Christian groups as so-called “hate groups”, emptying the term of meaning and making the SPLC a bad joke.
Most famously, SPLC mislabelled the Family Research Council a “hate group” for its stance against gay marriage, and in 2013 that prompted an attempted mass-murder by a gay activist, Floyd Lee Corkins II.
SPLC is still going. Most recently, they mislabelled the D. James Kennedy Ministries:
[…..]
The DJKM plan to fight back with a defamation suit. It will be interesting to see how it goes. I expect it to fail; “that’s our opinion” is a workable defense in many instances, and many in the law profession have a blind spot for the SPLC.
The WASHINGTON EXAMINER goes after the partisan hate-group with this excellent article:
Newsrooms were on fire this week with terrible news: The number of hate groups in the United States has soared to record highs under President Trump.
There are most certainly hate groups in the U.S., and even one is one too many, but I’d encourage everyone to approach the numbers reported this week with calm and caution. There’s nothing partisan operatives would love more than for you to panic and to believe them when they suggest that the problem can be solved by expelling “the other team” from power. That the figures cited by newsrooms come via the decidedly unreliable and hyper-partisan Southern Poverty Law Center also doesn’t help anything.
The New York Times reported, “Over 1,000 Hate Groups Are Now Active in United States, Civil Rights Group Says.”
“Hate groups ‘surge’ across the country since Charlottesville riot, report says,” reads the headline from the Miami Herald.
“Trump ‘Fear-Mongering’ Fuels Rise of U.S. Hate Groups to Record: Watchdog,” U.S. News and World Report said in a headline that sort of gives the game away.
First, let’s keep things in perspective. Remember, for example, that the rise in the number of hate crimes is attributable in some way to the fact that there are more reporting agencies ( hundreds, in fact!) than ever before. It’s easy to say, “Oh, it’s all because of President Trump,” pointing to incidents like his disastrous Charlottesville statement. But the problem of bigotry is far older and deeper than the current administration. That the Trump White House isn’t helping anything is one complaint, but don’t fall for the suggestion that it’s the main driver.
In 2015, for example, the group put Department of Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson on its “extremist watch list,” citing the one-time presidential candidate’s “anti-LGBT views.” Later, in 2016, the SPLC labeled women’s rights activist, female genital mutilation victim, atheist, and ex-Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali an “anti-Muslim extremist” because she opposes Islamic extremism. The British activist and extremist-turned-counterextremist Maajid Nawaz was placed in the same category. The SPLC lumps pro-family and pro-Israel organizations in with actual neo-Nazis.
As for the report the SPLC just released this week, IT CONCEDES THERE IS AN UPTICK IN THE NUMBER OF BLACK NATIONALIST GROUPS SINCE 2017, BUT IT DOWNPLAYS THIS FACT BY CLAIMING THOSE GROUPS “HAVE LITTLE OR NO IMPACT ON MAINSTREAM POLITICS AND NO DEFENDERS IN HIGH OFFICE.” I must’ve just imagined noted-anti-Semite and frequent Democratic guest Louis Farrakhan.
[….]
Hate groups are real. Hate crimes are real. The SPLC is not. It exploits hate groups to raise money and further political interests unrelated to the problem of hate. Don’t fall for the SPLC’s lies.
As you get older, the idea that the Old and New Testament are just about Jesus, comes into focus more-and-more. This explanation [below/right] of the scene in the Garden of Gethsemane, in focus, is another picture of the Salvation given us… let me repeat that… GIVEN/GIFTED TO US by our Great God’s work at Calvary
Then the other men [the company of soldiers, the commander, and the Jewish temple police] surged forward, took hold of Jesus, and arrested him. At that moment Simon Peter drew his sword and struck the high priest’s slave, Malchus’, right ear off. But Jesus responded, “No more of this!” Jesus said to Peter, “Sheathe your sword! […]”, the Jesus touched Malchus’ wound and healed him.
[Adapted telling from Luke 22:49-51; John 18:9-15; Matthew 26:49-55 via the International Standard Version (ISV) and the Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)]
A neighbor noted this when watching that video of the “flyover country” Christian’s insight:
So good. Romans 8:1. There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. It’s the sweet exchange. As human beings, it’s normal to want to come and bring something, show some effort. Earn our salvation. But we can’t.
THIS IS WORTHY OF A FEW VERSES FROM ROMANS 8:1-5 (ISV):
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in union with the Messiah Jesus. For the Spirit’s law of life in the Messiah Jesus has set me free from the Law of sin and death. For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did. By sending his own Son in the form of humanity, he condemned sin by being incarnate, so that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to human nature but according to the Spirit.
I have an insight into a verse many have not seen a connection in. The Apostle Paul visited the Church in Jerusalem ~ keep in mind that Paul was God’s replacement to Judas, not Matthias (who was chosen by lots). In visiting with some of the other Apostles in Jerusalem, he would have surely heard stories about Jesus’ life.
This event in John 13:1-20 would have been one:
JOHN 13:1-2; 4-8
Now before the Passover Festival, Jesus realized that his hour had come to leave this world and return to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. [….] Because Jesus knew that the Father had given everything into his control, that he had come from God, and that he was returning to God, therefore he got up from the table, removed his outer robe, and took a towel and fastened it around his waist. Then he poured some water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to dry them with the towel that was tied around his waist.
Then he came to Simon Peter, who asked him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
Jesus answered him, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later on you will understand.”
Peter told him, “You must never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “Unless I wash you, you cannot be involved with me.”
Leon Morris notes of this section in one of the best commentaries on John that this was a story about the cross:
Many take the story as no more than a lesson in humility, quite overlooking the fact that, in that case, Jesus’ dialogue with Peter completely obscures its significance! But those words, spoken in the shadow of the cross, have to do with cleansing, that cleansing without which no one belongs to Christ, that cleansing which is given by the cross alone. As Hunter says, “The deeper meaning then is that there is no place in his fellowship for those who have not been cleansed by his atoning death. The episode dramatically symbolizes the truth enunciated in I John 1:7, ‘We are being cleansed from every sin by the blood of Jesus’.”4
4 Hunter A. M. Hunter, The Gospel according to John, The Cambridge Bible Commentary (Cambridge, 1965) Hunter adds, “Many people today would like to be Christians but see no need of the cross. They are ready to admire Jesus’ life and to praise the sublimity of his moral teaching, but they cannot bring themselves to believe that Christ died for their sins, and that without that death they would be lost in sin. This, as Brunner has said, is one of the prime ‘scandals’ of Christianity for modern man—and the very heart of the apostolic Gospel.”
Leon Morris, The Gospel according to John, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995), 544–545.
Now, this is me, but I think that that story was the Holy Spirit inspired precursor to this well known verse in Christendom.
In other words, Paul refashioned this Last Supper story of Jesus washing feet to Philippians 2:6–11:
He loved them to the end […] Jesus rising from his seat [throne], removed his outer robe [Godhood], took a towel and fastened it around his waist [took on humanity], he poured some water into a basin and began to wash the disciples [ work on the cross for our punishment]
… hence Paul’s rewording of the core of this story:
PHILIPPIANS 2:6–11
6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be exploited.
7 Instead he emptied himself
by assuming the form of a servant,
taking on the likeness of humanity.
And when he had come as a man,
8 he humbled himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9For this reason God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11and every tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus’s “servant work” was to cleanse us completely! Even when we live our Christian life at times trampling on His Imago Dei in each of us causing his wrathful jealousy to protect this Image by judgement…
The remarkable plotline of God’s story is that the depth of the brokenness of the world’s inhabitants is answered by the uniqueness of Jesus. God is jealous of His own image in man, an image created to reflect the rays of His moral majesty. In fact, our creational identity as the image of God says a great deal about who we are, and our purpose, and meaning. (GOSPEL for LIFE)
…all He sees is Christ. It is the old man who is judged righteously in the trampling of this Holy Image in his or her rebellion. And they will know one day that God’s Grace was involved in every breath they took! Every tongue will confess…
And everyone will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and bring glory to God the Father
Amen?
Man, God is Good.
[To compliment the above graphic]
A. W. Tozer said of Leonard Ravenhill:“To such men as this, the church owes a debt too heavy to pay. The curious thing is that she seldom tries to pay him while he lives. Rather, the next generation builds his sepulchre and writes his biography — as if instinctively and awkwardly to discharge an obligation the previous generation to a large extent ignored.”
Soak in this understanding of Law vs. Gospel via THE WHITE HORSE INN’s discussion of God’s grace in Genesis chapters 15 thru 18 and the promises of redemptive history. Here is the description of this episode from White Horse Inn:
In his Genesis commentary, Walter Brueggemann notes that in chapters 16 to 18, Abraham and Sarah “are not offered as models of faith but as models of disbelief.” In this part of the narrative, he says, “the call is not embraced, but is rejected as non-sensical.” This helps to explain why the couple sought to fulfill God’s promise with Hagar’s assistance. But as Paul explains in Galatians chapter 4, this entire narrative is a tale of two covenants: one of grace, and another of works. Shane Rosenthal talks with Mike Brown about these issues and more as we continue our series on the Gospel in Genesis.
Show Quote:
There are only two kinds of religions in the world – one that seeks righteousness by keeping the law and one that seeks righteousness through faith in Christ. With the exception of Christianity, all of the religions in the world with their pursuits of enlightenment, salvation or self-realization fall into the first category, the category of trusting in self, in one’s own obedience. It’s a religion of human ascent that tries to earn God’s blessing through personal effort rather that receiving God’s blessing by grace through faith alone.
I will excerpt the section I read this from, but the reason I am noting it is that I have come across similar studies. And while it corrects the thinking of those on the other side of the political aisle as myself. It also corrects my thinking that things were much-much worse [killing wise] during those time.
I will first post my stats collected and included in myCrusades Post, followed by these new ones.
Enjoy:
There was nothing wrong, in principle, with the Crusades. They were an appropriate (if belated and badly managed) response to the conquest of the Holy Land by Islam. Did marauding 11th century armies inevitably commit outrages? They certainly did. In fact, that still happens today. But the most unfortunate thing about the Crusades is that they failed. (POWERLINE)
CHRISTIANITY (Crusades)
9 Total Crusades from 1095-1272 A.D;
The crusades lasted about 177 years;
About 1-million deaths – this includes: disease, the selling into slavery, and died en-route to the Holy land;
About 5,650 deaths a year.
ATHEISM (Stalin)
His rise to power in 1927 lasted until his death in 1953;
Stalin’s reign was 26-years;
Middle road estimates of deaths are 40-to-50-million;
That clocks in at about 1,923,076 deaths a year.
(Some put the death toll per-week by Stalin at 40,000 every week — even during “peacetime”)
ISLAM (killing Hindus)
80-million killed;
500-year war;
160,000 a year.
(As an aside… about 5.714 [to be clear, that is: five-point-seven one four people] people were killed a year by the Spanish Inquisition if you take the highest number over its 350-year long stretch if you use the leading historian on the topic.)
Not only were students able to demonstrate the paucity of evidence for this claim, but we helped them discover that the facts of history show the opposite: religion is the cause of a very small minority of wars. Phillips and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars lays out the simple facts. In 5 millennia worth of wars—1,763 total—only 123 (or about 7%) were religious in nature (according to author Vox Day in the book The Irrational Atheist). If you remove the 66 wars waged in the name of Islam, it cuts the number down to a little more than 3%. A second [5-volume] scholarly source, The Encyclopedia of War edited by Gordon Martel, confirms this data, concluding that only 6% of the wars listed in its pages can be labelled religious wars. Thirdly, William Cavanaugh’s book, The Myth of Religious Violence, exposes the “wars of religion” claim. And finally, a recent report (2014) from the Institute for Economics and Peace further debunks this myth.
Okay, the new stat added?
Between 1511 and 1890 were about 7,193 Natives who died at the hands of Europeans, and about 9,156 Europeans who died at the hands of Native Americans.
[….]
When you remember that we are discussing a period of some four centuries of conflict, then approximately ten thousand victims over four hundred years gives us an average of twenty-five massacred Indians per year, across an entire continent, over the entire course of colonial and American history. These massacres also tended to come in clusters, normally during outbreaks of war.
So, from 1511 to 1890 is 379 years, ergo…
Settlers killed by Injuns: 9,156 = 24.15 killed a year by Native-Americans
Native-Americans killed by Settlers: 7,193 = 18.97 killed a year by Settlers
Here is the section I got it from…
HOW FREQUENT WAS SETTLER-INDIAN WARFARE?
In the popular mind, as in Silverman’s telling, the history of New England-Indian relations was one of nearly continuous, racially motivated slaughter. A Wikipedia page of “Indian Massacres of North America” provides details for most of the violent incidents that took place between settlers and Indians, defining a “massacre” as an event in which five or more disarmed combatants or noncombatants were slaughtered. Among the most egregious slaughters of seventeenth-century New England were the Pequot or Mystic Massacre of 163 7 and the Great Swamp Massacre of 1675.
The Mystic Massacre took place in the context of the Pequot War. It saw a group of Connecticut colonists under Captain John Mason besiege a Pequot village containing between four hundred and seven hundred civilians. They shot anyone who tried to escape. In the end, the Connecticut colonists and their Indian allies stormed the fort, slaughtering all inhabitants including men, women, and children.
Some thirty-eight years later, the Great Swamp Massacre saw a group of Connecticut colonists and their Pequot allies slaughter hundreds of Narragansett women and children. They had been staying in a fortified village with a natural moat, but winter temperatures froze the moat, enabling the colonists and Pequots to storm the Narragansett settlement. In this case, however, the massacre was not entirely one-sided; the colonists lost some 70 killed and 150 wounded, in a struggle whose alternate name is “the Great Swamp Fight.”
Despite the relative rarity of such massacres in New England history, they feature prominently in popular articles on Thanksgiving. Such portrayals are distorted from multiple angles. First, they are spun to represent one-sided instances of colonist-on-Indian aggression. Secondly, they are spun to appear unprovoked. Third, they are spun as though they were motivated by racial hatred and a desire for ethnic cleansing above all else, based on an underlying greed for land. And finally, they are spun as though this sort of thing was happening all the time—as though they were typical of and “stand for” early New England history. All four of these interpretations are false, or at least misleading.
The charge of continuous warfare is a highly embellished view of colonial New England history. According to William M. Osborn, who incidentally is cited on the “Indian Massacres” page referenced above, the total casualties of Indian-settler massacres between 1511 and 1890 were about 7,193 Natives who died at the hands of Europeans, and about 9,156 Europeans who died at the hands of Native Americans.100 Osborn’s account might well be undercounting the number of Natives who died in the California Gold Rush era, as we will discuss in a later chapter. But it’s important to remember that for all this talk of massacre, the numbers involved were surprisingly small. Not only this, but Osborn’s numbers make plain that Europeans were at least as much victims as perpetrators in the grand scheme of things. When you remember that we are discussing a period of some four centuries of conflict, then approximately ten thousand victims over four hundred years gives us an average of twenty-five massacred Indians per year, across an entire continent, over the entire course of colonial and American history. These massacres also tended to come in clusters, normally during outbreaks of war.
Not only this, but often—as in the case of both the Mystic and Great Swamp Massacres—the perpetrators were colonists and their Indian allies. In many cases, it’s next to impossible for anyone to say whether the majority of killings were carried out by colonists or by Indian warriors thirsty for revenge against their enemies. We have already seen how hundreds of eyewitness accounts attest to the brutality of Indian revenge killings, which often resulted in the assimilation or literal genocide of neighboring tribes. And certainly, when Indians and colonists were working together as allies during a time of war, to imply that slaughters perpetrated by the allies were “racially motivated” is farcical. As the historian James A. Warren reminds us, King Philip’s War in the 1670s helped to destroy a “fascinating… bi-cultural experiment in Rhode Island that [the colonist Roger] Williams and the Narragansett leaders had worked so hard to maintain.”101
The Indian wars of the 1670s destroyed decades of patient work, which saw both Indian and colonial leaders lay the foundations for a multiethnic society across New England. To pretend that destruction and division was one-sided and routine is to completely ignore the “lived experience” of thousands of New Englanders who wanted to create a multicultural society even in the seventeenth century.
As to causality, James Warren is at pains to point out that “the causes of the Great Swamp Fight were varied and complex.” Warren explains that this was anything but simple colonist-on-Indian violence; it had much more to do with local power politics and the self-interest of various Indian chiefs than an overriding civilizational conflict. As to the question of whether the Great Swamp Fight was a battle or a massacre, Warren points out:
one could make a decent argument for either, and in a sense, it was both. The casualty figures among the Puritans confirm that the Narragansetts put up fierce resistance, which, to my mind, makes the engagement a battle. The Narragansetts had good reason to expect an attack, given the general turbulence that prevailed at that time in southeastern New England. The burning and the killing of non-combatants that followed after the Puritans [and their Indian allies] gained control of the fort, however, could certainly be called a massacre.
When war did break out, it often took the colonists by surprise. The largest scale colonial-Indian wars typically began with surprise attacks by Indians, which saw reeling colonists scramble to orchestrate a response.
In Virginia, the year 1622 saw the Powhatan Indians precipitate a war on the colonists, beginning with a surprise attack. The Virginians had settled in widely dispersed farmhouses, often very near Indian settlements, and the two peoples were used to trading and socializing with one another. This is why the English proved so vulnerable to ambush and massacre. In this case the Indians, whose intent was nakedly genocidal, managed to kill 347 people—one-quarter of the entire English population of Virginia. After signing a peace treaty, the Indians broke the peace again in 1644, managing to massacre some 400 colonists in the process. Another peace treaty was signed with them in 1646, and many of their descendants still live in Virginia today.
In the Pequot War of 1636-37, the Connecticut colony suffered months of raids on military forts and stockpiles without declaring an offensive war against the Indians. Only after the Pequots killed several women and children at Wethersfield did the colonists ally with local Indians to bring an offensive war to the Pequots. This campaign culminated in the above-mentioned Pequot or Mystic Massacre, when a force of some 77 Connecticut militia and over 250 Native allies attacked and massacred a Pequot stronghold.
King Philip’s War in the 1670s also began with a surprise attack by Indians. It too resulted in the massacre of a large number of colonists. Like the Virginia colonists earlier, several generations of largely peaceful relations had taught the colonists that they had nothing to fear from their Indian neighbors; so the Massachusetts colonists had similarly settled in widely dispersed farmhouses that were vulnerable to Indian attack. In the series of massacres perpetrated in 1675-76, the death toll to the colonists was fully twenty-five hundred people —approximately one-third of the total population of New England.102
Both the Powhatan Wars of Virginia and King Philip’s War in New England were calculated gambles on the part of powerful chiefs who hoped to deal a knockout blow to the English, thereby driving them from their territory forever. This was similar to how Indian chiefs dealt with neighboring tribes with whom they had a major grievance, when they believed they had a sufficient military advantage. The responsibility for the decision to go to war often lay with individual chiefs, and the logic they used made sense within the context of their social milieu.
After the 1670s, major conflict between the English and the Indians did not occur again until the French and Indian War of 1754-63—the better part of a century later. Hostilities once again began with Indian raids on widely scattered colonial farmsteads, resulting in the massacre and capture of colonists along long stretches of frontier. Many colonists were taken by surprise, because they were used to generations of peaceful relations and trade with the Indians who lived nearby.
While it is easy today to view this list of wars as an indication of continuous warfare, that is not how the frontier was experienced by the people of that era. For them, brief and intense conflicts were flashpoints that interrupted long, mostly uneventful decades of peace, trust, and trade.
FOOTNOTES
100William M. Osborn, The Wild Frontier: Atrocities during the American-Indian War from Jamestown Colony to Wounded Knee (New York: Random House, 2009).
101The Great Swamp Massacre, a Conversation with James A. Warren,” Rhode Island Historical Society, December 19, 2020, (Link to interview)
102 See Robert Cray, “‘Weltering in Their Own Blood’: Puritan Casualties in King Philip’s War,” Historical Journal of Massachusetts 37, no. 2, 106-124. (PDF)
Jeff Fynn-Paul, Not Stolen: The Truth About European Colonialism in the New World (Nashville, TN: Bombardier Books, 2023), 212-217.
I include the Santa Clarita Women Republican Association’s guide as page 2 of the printout. Why? Because I fashion mine off my Newhall ballot… ballots vary slightly for our areas. So the SCV GOP ladies will assist in some minor differences. Best practice is to print on both sides so you have one sheet to bring with you.
Dave Rubin of “The Rubin Report” talks to “Impact Theory’s” Tom Bilyeu and former CIA officer Mike Baker about Joe Rogan explaining to the “All-In Podcast’s” Chamath Palihapitiya how Democrat-run mainstream media’s biggest lies about Donald Trump are beginning to blow up in their faces….
As a side-note…. I have had luck showing people some of these biggest lies. They believe major instances by the mainstream media (MSM) and continue on as if it were true. It makes my job easier when I come up and have a meaningful discussion and show that Trump didn’t mock a disability of a reporter, or the facts on rapes and assaults on women who are making their way to the U.S. border. Or that Trump said the opposite of the “’Fine People’ trope [calling Nazis ‘fine people’]”, or that racists are voting for Trump en masse. Etc., Etc. Once people see how the media lied and tricked them, they start to be more open to policy discussion.