JUMP to CO2 LAGS TEMPERATURE Update!
This update comes by way of POWERLINE:
- Actually, there was no study, there was just a press release. And it wasn’t 11,000 scientists, it was 11,000 random people who put their names on a web page. But today’s reporters are so biased and so incompetent that when it comes to “climate change,” they will swallow anything.
A person I know via Facebook posted the following story on his wall:
I merely responded (in order to get a response really): “Lolz” (the plural, BTW, for Lol)
I got what I was looking for from my friend, AP:
Why is this funny?
This kicked off a very short convo… but this is my response to the above:
…there are a few reasons. One is this is a rehash by the same group from a few years back. Then they had 15,000 signatories. Now they are down to 11,000. Many of the signatures are from people not affiliated with climate issues: family physician, vertebrate palaeontology, nano optics, economics, civil engineering, and even a retired science teacher, inspector, and adviser… Etc. HEARTLANDS “PETITION PROJECT” has a better field of those more closely related to climate (over 31,000 signers).
Those are two reasons. But another that got me giggling was someone said plant more trees. Environmentalists are all over the place on this. They want to cut down entire forests, plant trees, say you cannot cut and replant for market $$ related issues (why the fires in Cali are getting worse BTW), save old growth even though they cease “gobbling up” carbon. On and on.
I also know we need more carbon (CO2), not less. These are some of the reasons. There are many more reasons, some can be found on my site, here:
Since the conversation is short (more to come), I wanted to pause and post some of the commentary on the OP. This comes from BREITBART:
Some have noted that very few of those 11,000 signatories are directly involved in climate science. They work in fields ranging from ‘family physician’, ‘vertebrate palaeontology’, ‘nano optics’ ‘economics’ to ‘civil engineering’ and ‘retired science teacher, inspector and adviser, Warwickshire County Council’. The impression given is of a vast parasite industry – the Climate Industrial Complex – with a strong vested interest in promoting the “climate emergency” but with little personal understanding of the field themselves.
JO NOVA also notes one of the many issues (of course JO gets into the scientific weeds a bit as well:
- Who remembers that 15,000 scientists signed some climate declaration in 2017? The same Prof Ripple, and Bioscience probably hope you don’t, because two years later there is the same rehashed, but with only 11,000 signatories. So 4,000 disappeared without a trace. There are however, the same comic indefendable graphs. Call it “extreme graphing” — every line needs to be diagonal. All “pauses” are disappearing. No fallacy remains unbroken.
And as JO NOVA notes, and was my point above, “The Petition Project was better done, done years ago, done twice, and has twice as many names on it.”
…The current list of petition signers includes 9,029 PhD; 7,157 MS; 2,586 MD and DVM; and 12,715 BS or equivalent academic degrees. Most of the MD and DVM signers also have underlying degrees in basic science.
All of the listed signers have formal educations in fields of specialization that suitably qualify them to evaluate the research data related to the petition statement. Many of the signers currently work in climatological, meteorological, atmospheric, environmental, geophysical, astronomical, and biological fields directly involved in the climate change controversy…
Continuing with JO NOVA:
Don’t miss the opportunity to pop in on the same journalists that think a list of 15,000 scientists [now “11,000] doing a ten second internet form is newsworthy, but 30,000 checked and accredited scientists signing and mailing a paper form is not. Let them bask in their hypocrisy. Turn the screws on their cognitive dissonance. Be polite. Enjoy their struggle.
For the most part, the media actively ignored 30,000 scientists probably because it didn’t fit with their religion, their own voting preferences, or because they were afraid people they call “friends” might call them a names and stop inviting them to dinner. Cowards. (Let’s talk about being brave: Art Robinson, who organised the Petition Project, later ran for Congress, and his three youngest children all had their PhD’s simultaneously canceled, snatched or dismissed by none other than Oregon State University — the same place that this new “poll” is hosted — OSU.)
WATTS UP WITH THAT however, has the best info — to really get you to LOL:
From the “there’s no quality control in climate science” department comes this laughable revelation, via the Australian:
Scientists’ Petition On Climate Crisis Blocked Over Fake Signatories
Dozens of signatories including Mickey Mouse and Harry Potter headmaster Albus Dumbledore from Hogwarts have been removed from an Alliance of World Scientists declaration of a “climate emergency”.
Access to the 11,000 name-petition that accompanied a statement of concern published in BioScience on Tuesday was blocked on Thursday.
Okay, moving on in the short conversation. AP said the following after my response:
Fair enough Sean Giordano, on what made you giggle. Thanks for explaining. It’s fair to point out that perhaps some of the 11,000 people are not precisely climate scientists.
Also though, if what you’re saying about some of the 11,000 is true, it also doesn’t negate the truth of the science either.
There are so many things I can debate and argue with you about when it comes to climate change. But I fear I would be bombarded with a litany of logical fallacies.
Would you be willing to respond to just one specific aspect of climate change for me? It seems to me, that you’ve taken statements from one specific scientist, Dr William Happer, and gone with that as your reasoning for believing that we need more CO2. I also note that Dr Happer has used the phrase “CO2 famine” to explain where we are at in time with CO2 levels.
If you look at the Keeling Curve, you’ll see that since the 1950’s, CO2 levels have gone from less than 300 ppm to above 400ppm today. If you look at the Vostok Ice Core samples, that look back over 800,000 years into Earths past, you’ll see that CO2 levels have not ever surpassed 310ppm in that time frame, until now. There’s also a very clear up & down cycle to that 800,000 year history that is predictable (because of ice ages) over the long period of time before the modern industrial revolution. That history is no longer predictable in the same way because of humans contributing to increased CO2 levels. We have broken the cycle.
The fact that Dr Happer uses the famine phrase to explain where we are at is disingenuous as best, and an outright lie at worst. I would say the same thing about any other people using this word “famine” to describe our CO2 levels. It’s just wrong.
I’m really curious if Dr Happer is your only source for believing this CO2 famine falsehood? Where are you concluding this from beyond the words of a very small minority of people?
Can you please point me to some scientific research where CO2 levels are above 400ppm before the industrial revolution?
I respond in short:
…of course I will. I drive from the early a.m. till mid-afternoon so my response won’t be immediate but I love good conversation
while stuck in some 405 traffic just a quick response to your [2nd to last] last question: Dr. Freeman Dyson name that carries some weight with it. As well as many of the people found listed in parts of this WIKI PAGE.
Here are two noteworthy videos including Dr. Dyson I mentioned later in a convo that I think we were both too busy for (from a larger post of mine regarding CO2):
Renown physicist Freeman Dyson says CO2 does not worry him… montage
Here is a good, layman article discussing AP’s last question (which was related to his 2nd to last which I answered):
If we study, however, what has been happening at the geological level for several million years, we realize that the present period is characterized by an extraordinarily low CO2 level. During the Jurassic, Triassic, and so on, the CO2 level rose to values sometimes of the order of 7000, 8000, 9000 ppm, which considerably exceeds the paltry 400 ppm that we have today.
Not only did life exist, in those far-off times when CO2 was so present in large concentration in the atmosphere, but plants such as ferns commonly attained heights of 25 meters.
Reciprocally, far from benefiting the current vegetation, the reduction of the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere would be likely to compromise the health, and even the survival, of numerous plants. To fall below the threshold of 280 or 240 ppm would plainly lead to the extinction of a large variety of our vegetal species.
In addition, our relentless crusade to reduce CO2 could be more harmful to nature as plants are not the only organisms to base their nutrition on CO2. Phytoplankton species also feed on CO2, using carbon from CO2 as a building unit and releasing oxygen.
By the way, it is worth remembering that ~70% of the oxygen present today in the atmosphere comes from phytoplankton, not trees: contrary to common belief, it is not the forests, but the oceans, that constitute the “lungs” of the earth.
The truth about the “greenhouse effect”
About the supposed link between global warming and CO2 emissions, it is simply not true that CO2 has a major greenhouse effect. It is worth remembering, here too, that CO2 is a minor gas. Today it represents only 0.04% of the composition of the air; and its greenhouse effect is attributed the value of 1.
The major greenhouse gas in the atmosphere is water vapor which is ten times more potent than CO2 in its greenhouse effect. Water vapor is present in a proportion of 2% in the atmosphere.
Those facts are, in principle, taught at school and at university, but one still manages to incriminate CO2 alongside this learning, in using a dirty trick that presents the warming effect of CO2 as minor but exacerbated, through feedback loops, by the other greenhouse effects.
Can You Guess How Much CO2 is Mankind Responsible For? Click HERE for the Answer….
The benefit of this is relayed in the following via GEM STATE PATRIOT:
Over 279 research projects reports have shown that increasing CO2 increases crop production. The 14% increase in CO2 from 350 part per million (ppm) to 400 ppm has resulted in a 14% increase in crop production. Plants are actually starved for CO2 as they desire 1500 to 2000 ppm of CO2 to obtain maximum production. Commercial greenhouses fertilize the atmosphere by adding additional CO2 to speed growth of all plants. Plants get 400 ppm now.
Increased CO2 levels now improve the health, longevity, prosperity and productivity of all people on planet Earth.
More as well:
If we study, however, what has been happening at the geological level for several million years, we realize that the present period is characterized by an extraordinarily low CO2 level. During the Jurassic, Triassic, and so on, the CO2 level rose to values sometimes of the order of 7000, 8000, 9000 ppm, which considerably exceeds the paltry 400 ppm that we have today. Not only did life exist, in those far-off times when CO2 was so present in large concentration in the atmosphere, but plants such as ferns commonly attained heights of 25 meters. Reciprocally, far from benefiting the current vegetation, the reduction of the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere would be likely to compromise the health, and even the survival, of numerous plants. To fall below the threshold of 280 or 240 ppm would plainly lead to the extinction of a large variety of our vegetal species.
In addition, our relentless crusade to reduce CO2 could be more harmful to nature as plants are not the only organisms to base their nutrition on CO2. Phytoplankton species also feed on CO2, using carbon from CO2 as a building unit and releasing oxygen. By the way, it is worth remembering that ~70% of the oxygen present today in the atmosphere comes from phytoplankton, not trees: contrary to common belief, it is not the forests, but the oceans, that constitute the “lungs” of the earth.
(Side-Note: JO NOVA has a more detailed critique)
CLIMATE DEPOT has a great post with lots-a-links essentially saying the big 400ppm is really THE BIG YAWN. Here is a small section to respond to AP’s thinking that we have never been past the 400ppm mark:
[See: Peer-Reviewed Study finds ‘ancient’ Earth’s climate similar to present day — despite CO2 levels 5 to over 20 times higher than today! — Geologists reconstructed Earth’s climate belts between 460 and 445 million years ago and found ‘ancient climate belts were surprisingly like those of the present’ — Also included ‘a brief, intense glaciation’ &
New paper (March 2013) finds CO2 spiked to levels higher than the present during termination of last ice age — Paper published in Quaternary Science Reviews — Study ‘reconstructs CO2 levels during the termination of the last ice age and finds CO2 spiked to levels near or even exceeding those of the present, obviously without any human influence. According to the authors, ‘THE RECORD CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES THAT [CO2 LEVELS WERE] SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER THAN USUALLY REPORTED FOR THE LAST [GLACIAL] TERMINATION,’ WITH LEVELS OF UP TO ~425 PPM ABOUT 12,750 YEARS AGO, WHICH EXCEEDS THE PRESENT CO2 CONCENTRATION OF 395 PPM’
That was it… I saw this as an opportunity to respond to the Guardian OP, as well as add some issues. This is related to the The Medieval Warming Period as well. The following is an UPDATED (tweaked) section of a main post on the issue:
CO2 Not The Demon
It Is Made Out To Be
But asking someone who has swallowed this story is like beating a dead horse. They will tell me — to my face — that mankind releasing CO2 into the atmosphere is driving weather changes (MRCTV FILE).
I will point out a graph that shows in the past couple of decades man has produced more CO2 combined from the previous 100-years, overlayed to the temperature staying the same for over 18-years (in fact, falling a bit since 2005), and this MAJOR, FOUNDATIONAL belief being shown false doesn’t sway their “belief” towards rethinking their previously held paradigm.
Study-after-study, notes that CO2 productions lags behind temperature rising… not the other way around (as the above video notes). IN OTHER WORDS, many proponents of anthropogenic global warming that view man’s harmful creation of CO2 as a driving force behind the issue seem to have the “script flipped,” to put it mildly.
Here is just one example of “The Phase Relation Between Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide And Global Temperature,” discussed at THE HOCKEY SCHTICK:
As well as ICE-CORES showing a higher PPM of CO2 in our past than today:
- A new stomatal proxy-based record of CO2 concentrations ([CO2]), based on Betula nana (dwarf birch) leaves from the Hässeldala Port sedimentary sequence in south-eastern Sweden, is presented. The record is of high chronological resolution and spans most of Greenland Interstadial 1 (GI-1a to 1c, Allerød pollen zone), Greenland Stadial 1 (GS-1, Younger Dryas pollen zone) and the very beginning of the Holocene (Preboreal pollen zone). The record clearly demonstrates that i) [CO2] were significantly higher than usually reported for the Last Termination and ii) the overall pattern of CO2 evolution through the studied time period is fairly dynamic, with significant abrupt fluctuations in [CO2] when the climate moved from interstadial to stadial state and vice versa. A new loss-on-ignition chemical record (used here as a proxy for temperature) lends independent support to the Hässeldala Port [CO2] record. The large-amplitude fluctuations around the climate change transitions may indicate unstable climates and that “tipping-point” situations were involved in Last Termination climate evolution. The scenario presented here is in contrast to [CO2] records reconstructed from air bubbles trapped in ice, which indicate lower concentrations and a gradual, linear increase of [CO2] through time. The prevalent explanation for the main climate forcer during the Last Termination being ocean circulation patterns needs to re-examined, and a larger role for atmospheric [CO2] considered. (HOCKEY SCHTICK | PAPER)
But really, an increased CO2 has been historically beneficial to our planet, as well as theoretically good for us. See Also, “Dr. William Happer Speaking To The Benefits Of CO2.”