Debating God via Infoceptor Forums circa 2003 | Raw Debate

This is an old debate I was involved in at Infoceptor Forums (a defunct site for early gamers via: StarCraft / Warcraft / Diablo — in the Serious Discussions/Religion part of the forum. Similar to SPACE BATTLES)… the reason I do not do this format of debating any longer is because there would be too many people coming in to comment and challenge me… and not enough “Me’s” to respond back.  Keep in mind that many here are not Christians, so some foul language is in the mix. 

Enjoy… but I warn you… it is long! The debate happened between 05-27-2003 & 06-05-2003 and their are many commentators… it is raw.

[I will add some commentary in these brackets]

METHSNAX SAID:

I am an athiest, but I am always open to learning about new religions and such, so I was wondering if those who have a religion would please explain their religion so that we could better understand that of which we do not partake in.


HERESY RESPONDS:

I am also an atheist… but I have some suggested reading for you.

Will to Power – Nietzsche

Koran (well not all of it)

Inferno – Dante

Genesis

PREATOR ANTRAX RESPONDS:

I’m sort of an Agnostic. Although I tend to think God does exist. But as a man of science, I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.

But that’s not where it stops, I basically believe that God exists and that I must stand opposed to him. I do what I can to ridicule his religions and find fallacies and contradictions in his teachings. In fact, I have a score board, currently 3:2 (I’m winning), of successful direct stands against one another. It makes for an interesting life. Oh, and I’m not a Satanist, if he was so prevalent then I’d oppose that bastard too.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]

[QUOTING PREATOR ANTRAX] “But as a man of science I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.”

Nor is he prepared to go out and spend a little cash to see if science does indeed point to a Divine Intelligence behind it all.

For any wishing to get the best answers to tough questions, I will take a quote from my “Replying to Human / Ape Proof of Evolution?” strain, for those interested in being unbiased (scientific).

Quote:

I have a few suggestions for your viewing and reading pleasure:

  • The first is by an atheist, Richard Milton.  He wrote a book called Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, and that’s exactly what it does.  The author is not opposed to evolution, per se, but he is opposed to how it is currently taught, being that it is more pseudo-science than actual science.  Plus, he is not a creationist trying to bury the proverbial axe.

Now, keep in mind that these books I am mentioning are for the introductory reader on this subject however, if you are a college student taking courses in a particular scientific field, let me know and I will offer a more technical manual.

  • The next book I recommend is by Ralph Muncaster, and is called, Dismantling Evolution: Building the Case for Intelligent Design.  He is a Christian, but the book is written for the irreligious, for the most part.  

These two books, one by an atheist, the other by a Christian-theist, would be great – positive – places to start from.  I also realize that documentaries of the quality close to, say, The Learning Channel, or the Discovery Channel, would help bring what these books mention to a three-dimensional life.  The two DVD’s I will offer for your investigation into this matter are:

  • The first is a short (30 min) film, but is packed with a large punch.  It is called, From a Frog to a Prince, and is well worth the money.  The other DVD documentary is called, Unlocking the Mystery of Life: The Scientific Case for Intelligent Design.  Both are well done and deserve an honest hearing in front of your viewing pleasure.

These four suggestions will allow you to, over the course of, say a year, if you took your time, to get some of the positive input by doctorate holding scientists and professors in their special fields of science on this matter.  This is not me changing someone’s mind, but allowing said person to make up his or her own mind in light of all the evidence.  This is all I wish for people. 

PREATOR ANTRAX RESPONDS TO ME:

[QUOTING PAPA GIORGIO] “But as a man of science I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.”  Nor is he prepared to go out and spend a little cash to see if science does indeed point to a Divine Intelligence behind it all.

Oh so you know what I spend my money on, do you? And I know for a fact that there is no reputable scientific theory that proves the existence of a “Divine Intelligence”, there are certainly philosophers that have thought to have proved it, such as Berkeley but they have been met with equally strong opposition. Everytime someone thinks they’ve got proof, someone think about it and provides a reason to reject this proof. And as such I am not going to say for sure that either side is correct. I allow for the existence of God, I think I would be disappointed if he didn’t exist. God is quite and adversary to have. But I’m sorry Papa Giorgio, you don’t get to claim that science has conclusively proved God exists, I know it hasn’t. Anyway it would destroy the religion if it had, because religion is meant to be a question of faith…if you prove it you remove the concept of faith and in effect destroy the religion. Prove that God exists and then believing in him means nothing.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]

[QUOTING PREATOR ANTRAX] “And I know for a fact that there is no reputable scientific theory that proves the existence of a “Divine Intelligence”

Have you viewed and read the above books/DVD’s? How about reading Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, by Dr. Michael Behe? Or The Natural Limits to Biological Change? How about the two seminal works, The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for an Intelligent Designer, and Mere Creation: Science, Faith & Intelligent Design.

Please tell me, Antrax, which creation or intelligent design books or articles HAVE you read? I would love to know  — so I wouldn’t have to go around guessing where you spend your money. I would like to know, since you so forcefully claim there is no scientific evidence for design. What made you come to that conclusion? Bias? Or actually looking at the best available evidence?

  • Do you say, “God doesn’t exist, therefore
  • Or do you say, “I have looked at the best evidence available to me now, and I do not see

[….]

Please, again, let me know what books, articles, or media you have taken the time to thoroughly read and meditate on to come to your brazen conclusions that 90% of the world’s population throughout history hasn’t.

CRAZY MOFO JOINS IN:

It’s not that we haven’t looked for the evidence that intelligent design actually took place, it’s that there isn’t any. Seriously I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design. It’s hog wash I tell you :)

And I noticed you referred to “god” as a he. Why does everyone do this? If something created humans and everything why would it be logical to assume he is a human male?

Anyways Papa Giorgio can you please just tell me a few of the best points of why intelligent design is feasible?

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]

[QUOTING MOFO] “I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design.”

This is the point MoFo, when people say, “well, you don’t know what I have read or studied but I know there is no evidence in this or that,” when pressed about what they have read, silence usually follows. It did with you MoFo [a previous debate], and it did with Antrax. I could sit here and argue your ignorance to the issue of Intelligent Design theory, but I would be hitting up against a brick wall. Because you refuse to even look, let me repeat you again

[QUOTING MOFO] “I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design.”

The point is you haven’t even looked yet, you just assume it not to be so. I don’t reject Mormonism, or Jehovah Witness’, or Islam because I know them to be false based on already assuming Christianity to be true. I have gone out and put the same test I put to the Christian faith. The same goes for science. I go out and put a test to what science currently knows, and what we can see in nature.

I don’t know if you realized yet (I’m sure you do), MoFo, but I quoted you at the beginning of the “Human Evolution” [another debate] post, and I must say (and I do not say this in meanness, or a prideful manner), you ended up looking silly. Why? Because you state something so emphatically, and then cannot back up what you are saying. And then after reading it all, you just shrug it off and say, “Well! I still believe in it!”

I haven’t heard such a haughty tone from Dr. Pangloss [FYI, that is a fictional character in Voltaire’s book Candide], or the others who ask constructive questions? Or maybe some have seen the weakness in what they use to believe were good arguments (basing their beliefs on them), and are now – maybe for the first time in their life (and rightly so) – going to go out and “dig a little deeper.” They, however, haven’t dug quite the deep hole you and Antrax seem to dig.

Again, I just think you should consider I know, it sounds out-of-this-world — just maybe possibly, going out of your way and check out just one of the resources I mentioned. Start with the atheist’s book about evolution I recommended.

Don’t say there isn’t, and then go look with that attitude. Say, there’s a possibility (just a shred of one, but a shred nonetheless), but I should look into it to see, for myself.

Are you a

  • “God doesn’t exist [presupposed], therefore

Or,

  • “I have looked at the best evidence available to me now [open-minded], so I haven’t seen yet

One is scientific in nature, the other isn’t.

P.S., I will get to a few examples later, I want to let the other posts [debates] die down first.

GIADDON ALSO JOINS:

One reason I don’t believe in god is the lack of proof of his existence. I used to be a Christian, but left in disgust when I saw that there was just Nothing there. A bunch of hypocritical and contradictory pish-tosh that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

For example, on Origins.org [I recommended this article to MethSnax, but it is a dead site now] I found a fascinating article on how the burden of proof lies on the atheists. From the beginning, this is illogical. It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as god. The whole article seems to say:

“We’re tired of trying to prove that god exists: your turn.”

Furthermore, back in ye olde tymes, God was quite an active fellow. Starting floods, talking to people, sending plagues, burning bushes. Yet all of a sudden he went quiet. Why did he suddenly stop doing things? Did he get bored and wander away? Did he go on a snack run? What? Or maybe he can’t contact us and we can’t contact him for a very simple reason:

He doesn’t exist.

METHSNAX:

Wow, thank you very much. I have read much of the material suggested, except for the books, although I believe they will contain a great deal that I should know to. I have read Genesis, and part of the Koran. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should form my own religion. It would be a varied form of atheism that merely questions God existence in a more scientific manner, not completely deny it. This way, people can not believe in God, but still maintain an understanding of other religions. I hope that wasn’t a stupid idea. The only true problem I see with religion is that if you total the deaths caused in the name of God/god(s) compared to all other deaths in the world, you will see that most are in the name of God/god(s) or religions that promote non violence.

CRAZY MOFO:

Right you are, MethSnax. The terrorists behind the nightmares of 9/11 believed they are going to a type of “heaven” for their brave acts.

Bush thinks he is going to a type of “heaven” for protecting america, the “good side”, and destroying “evil” (terrorists and terrorist harboring countries).

It’s the same damn idea on both sides, however each side thinks they are the “good side”! Good going religion :(

KAIGUN NOW JOINS:

So lemme get this straight, because religion is used as an excuse for killing someone, it is the religion’s fault?

Let me pose a question to you. A criminal goes on a shooting spree and attributes his mass murder to video game violence. Do you therefore draw the conclusion that it is video games that are responsible for these murders?

PREATOR ANTRAX:

I actually do read alot of books and articles pertaining to scientific and philosophical evaluations of religion and religious claims. And I have regular conversation with the father of my best friendwho has spent the last 3-4 years of his life evaluating religion, and has spent huge amounts of money on books. So far I have not found anything that works as a sound confirmation of the existence of a divine intelligence. Stop being so pig-headed by assuming because you’ve found something that you see as evidence, that everyone will take it as evidence. Some people take more to convince.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]

Wasn’t it you, GIADDON, who said there was no logical proof for His existence? Then I posted a response:

Based on Sufficient Reason

(See an excellent article at The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

P1) A contingent being exists.

  1. This contingent being is caused either (1) by itself, or (2) by another.
  2. If it were caused by itself, it would have to precede itself in existence, which is impossible.

P2) Therefore, this contingent being (2) is caused by another, i.e., depends on something else for its existence.

P3) That which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (3) another contingent being, or (4) a non-contingent being (necessary) being.

  1. If 3, then this contingent cause must itself be caused by another, and so onto infinity.

P4) Therefore, that which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (5) an infinite series of contingent beings, or (4) a necessary being.

P5) An infinite series of contingent beings (5) is incapable of yielding a sufficient reason for the existence of any being.

P6) Therefore, a necessary being (4) exists!

Based on the Principle of Existential Causality

  1. Some limited, changing being[s] exist.
  2. The present existence of every limited, changing being is caused by another.
  3. There cannot be an infinite regress of causes of being.
  4. Therefore, there is a first Cause of the present existence of these beings.
  5. This first Cause must be infinite, necessary, eternal, simple, unchangeable and one.
  6. This first uncaused Cause is identical with the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition

A mix of both

  1. Something exists (e.g., I do);
  2. I am a contingent being;
  3. Nothing cannot cause something;
  4. Only a Necessary Being can cause a contingent being;
  5. Therefore, I am caused to exist by a Necessary Being;
  6. But I am personal, rational, and moral kind of being (since I engage in these kinds of activities);
  7. Therefore this Necessary Being must be a personal, rational, and moral kind of being, since I am similar to him by the Principle of Analogy;
  8. But a Necessary Being cannot be contingent (i.e., not necessary) in its being which would be a contradiction;
  9. Therefore, this Necessary Being is personal, rational, and moral in a necessary way, not in a contingent way;
  10. This Necessary Being is also eternal, uncaused, unchanging, unlimited, and one, since a Necessary Being cannot come to be, be caused by another, undergo change, be limited by any possibility of what it could be (a Necessary Being has no possibility to be other than it is), or to be more than one Being (since there cannot be two infinite beings);
  11. Therefore, one necessary, eternal, uncaused, unlimited (=infinite), rational, personal, and moral being exists;
  12. Such a Being is appropriately called “God” in the theistic sense, because he possesses all the essential characteristics of a theistic God;
  13. Therefore, the theistic God exists.

Giaddon, you said:

“It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as God”

Amorphous means:

  1. lacking definite form; having no specific shape; formless: the amorphous clouds.
  2. of no particular kind or character; indeterminate; having no pattern or structure; unorganized: an amorphous style; an amorphous personality.

Now, I want either Giaddon to answer this, or anyone else fo that matterwhat did Giaddon just do to contradict her/him self??

I will give a hint below with a small portion of a paper I have already posted and you would think these types of mistakes would be stopped once shown – going to show how much bad-thinking is incorporated into our minds when not honed. My favorite quote is,

  • “Raising one’s self-consciousness [awareness] about worldviews is an essential part of intellectual maturity” (From the book, World-Views In Conflict: Choosing Christianity In a World of Ideas, by Ronald Nash).

Quote:

What about agnosticism, does the belief that one cannot ultimately know anything about God hold up to rational and logical thought? *Before going any further, I should define the two different types of agnostics:

  • Agnosticism: The state of not-knowing whether there is a God or not. *The humble [soft] agnostic says that he doesn’t know whether there is a God. *The less humble [hard] agnostic says that you don’t either… [and] thinks that we can’t ever really know (Tom Morris, Philosophy for Dummies. Chicago, Illinois: IDG Books Worldwide (1999), p. 238.)

I am mainly dealing here with the “hard” agnostic. *The “soft” agnostic is open to receiving information about God from others and then tests these claims by the rules and science of logic, history, and experience. *An example that bears striking similarities to the “hard” agnostic is that of a conversation between a teacher and her student:

Teacher: “Welcome, students. This is the first day of class, and so I want to lay down some ground rules. First, since no one person has the truth, you should be open-minded to the opinions of your fellow students. Second… Elizabeth, do you have a question?”

Elizabeth: “Yes I do. If nobody has the truth, isn’t that a good reason for me not to listen to my fellow students? After all, if nobody has the truth, why should I waste my time listening to other people and their opinions? What’s the point? Only if somebody has the truth does it make sense to be open-minded. Don’t you agree?”

Teacher: “No, I don’t. Are you claiming to know the truth? Isn’t that a bit arrogant and dogmatic?”

Elizabeth: “Not at all. Rather I think it’s dogmatic, as well as arrogant, to assert that no single person on earth knows the truth. After all, have you met every single person in the world and quizzed them exhaustively? If not, how can you make such a claim? Also, I believe it is actually the opposite of arrogance to say that I will alter my opinions to fit the truth whenever and wherever I find it. And if I happen to think that I have good reason to believe I do know truth and would like to share it with you, why wouldn’t you listen to me? Why would you automatically discredit my opinion before it is even uttered? I thought we were supposed to listen to everyone’s opinion.”

Teacher: “This should prove to be an interesting semester.”

Another Student: “(blurts out) Ain’t that the truth.” (Students laugh)

(Francis J. Beckwith & Gregory Koukl, Relativism: Feet Planted Firmly In Mid-Air. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books (1998), p. 74.)

The hard agnostic dismisses the argument even before hearing it. *This type of agnosticism is refuted by the associate professor of philosophy and government at the University of Texas at Austin, J. Budziszewski (Ph.D., Yale University):

  • “To say that we cannot know anything about God is to say something about God; it is to say that if there is a God, he is unknowable. *But in that case, he is not entirely unknowable, for the agnostic certainly thinks that we can know one thing about him: *That nothing else can be known about him. *Unfortunately, the position that we can know exactly one thing about God – his unknowability in all respects except this – is equally unsupportable, for why should this one thing be an exception? How could we know that any possible God would be of such a nature that nothing else could be known about him? *On what basis could we rule out his knowability in all other respects but this one? The very attempt to justify the claim confutes it, for the agnostic would have to know a great many things about God in order to know he that couldn’t know anything else about him” (Norman Geisler & Paul Hoffman, editors, Why I Am a Christian: Leading Thinkers Explain Why They Believe. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books (2001), p. 54.)

Agnostics basically claim that nothing can be known about reality (or, Reality). *Norman Geisler points out that “in its ultimate form [agnosticism] claims that all knowledge about reality (i.e., truth) is impossible. *But this itself is offered as a truth about reality” (Josh McDowell, The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict. Nashville: Thomas Nelson (1999), p. 637).

He did contact us, and proved His existence.

KAIGUN, great point, and you clearly show a use of a part of the brain that others seem to not, common sense! Not only do MethSnax and MoFo “blame the video game,” but they would then say the video game does not exist. I know I just simplified it too much, but the premise remains.

METHSNAX, I would entreat you to read an article found at: The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity? Please, read the whole article.

[A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be ‘most’ really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 7,000 years of recorded human warfare. COMPARED TO just 100-years where atheistic/dialectical materialistic government were founded and killed more people than all of religion before the 20th century — if you exclude Islam. So atheism in 100-years killed more people than all of the history of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Jainism, Taoism, etc., combined. So, it seems, you would WANT people to be religious to curtail out nature. I also expanded on this a tad HERE]

Again ANTRAX: What have you read? Give me the articles, names of the books, etc. I want to knowplease inform me, as, I may have read it as well. if putting you on the spot is pigheaded, then so be it.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]

MOFO, you are very apt at showing your youthful “ire.” My hope is you actually make it from the abyss of necessitous thought patterns and join the world of reflective thinking. To pigeonhole the geopolitical landscape into such a neanderthalish comparison of, “good religion vs. bad religion,” is just too much for me to bear. Again, I entreat you to stop focusing on your very-apparent psychological fear of anything Christian – because you apparently cannot even comment on a simple political choice made by a United States president without throwing religion in the mix.

Are you so tainted about the Christian faith (or, religion in general) that you would simply brush it aside by making such child-like comparisons of a complex issue?

I wish to leave the world of religio-political thought (or so inferred by you) for a moment and share an incite with you that I hope (and can only pray), hits home.

Quote:

Instead of thinking of Christianity as a collection of theological bits and pieces to be believed or debated, we should approach our faith as a conceptual system, as a total world-and-life view. Once people understand that both Christianity and its adversaries in the world of ideas are worldviews, they will be in a better position to judge the relative merits of the total Christian system. William Abraham has written:

“Religious belief should be assessed as a rounded whole rather than taken in stark isolation, Christianity, for example, like other world faiths, is a complex, large-scale system of belief which must be seen as a whole before it is assessed. To break it up into disconnected parts is to mutilate and distort its true character. We can, of course, distinguish certain elements in the Christian faith, but we must still stand back and see it as a complex interaction of these elements. We need to see it as a metaphysical system, as a worldview, that is total in its scope and range” (An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion, p. 104).

The case for or against Christian theism should be made and evaluated in terms of total systems. Christianity is not simply a religion that tells human beings how they may be forgiven, however important this information is. Christianity is also a total world-and-life view. Our faith has important things to say about the whole of human life. Once Christians understand in a systematic way how the options to Christianity are also worldviews, they will be in a better position to justify their choice of Christianity rationally. The reason many people reject our faith is not due to their problems with one or two isolated issues; it is the result of their anti-Christian conceptual scheme, which leads them to reject information and arguments that for believers provide support for the Christian worldview.

Ronald H. Nash, Worldviews in Conflict: Choosing Christianity in a World of Ideas (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1992)

  • “The problem with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult, and left untried” — G. K. Chesterton (Quote taken from, A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism)

A book that helps to compare three major worldviews is entitled Understanding the Times: The Religious Worldviews of Our Day and the Search for Truth, by David A. Noebel. It compares Secular Humanism, Marxism/Leninism, and Christianity in the realm of:

1) Theology
2) Philosophy
3) Ethics
4) Biology
5) Psychology
6) Sociology
7) Law
8) Politics
9) Economics
10) History

Until you look at Christianity in a way that includes the whole sum, you are merely making a mockery of my faith, and yourself, when saying such puerile statement about George W’s belief.

SIRZAP: 

[SIR ZIP QUOTES GIADDON]

Furthermore, back in ye olde tymes, God was quite an active fellow. Starting floods, talking to people, sending plagues, burning bushes. Yet all of a sudden he went quiet. Why did he suddenly stop doing things? Did he get bored and wander away? Did he go on a snack run? What? Or maybe he can’t contact us and we can’t contact him for a very simple reason:

He doesn’t exist.

Jesus founded a churchwith the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

GOD did actively intervened in history

but of courseJesus told HE will come again but there will be turbulent times ahead

Knowledge will increase and People will travel to and froas prophesied by Daniel…

[SIR ZIP QUOTES PREATOR ANTRAX]

I actually do read a lot of books and articles pertaining to scientific and philosophical evaluations of religion and religious claims. And I have regular conversation with the father of my best friend…who has spent the last 3-4 years of his life evaluating religion, and has spent huge amounts of money on books. So far I have not found anything that works as a sound confirmation of the existence of a divine intelligence. Stop being so pig-headed by assuming because you’ve found something that you see as evidence, that everyone will take it as evidence. Some people take more to convince.

Me tooI spent books on other people’s religion and beliefs….

Divine Intelligence…. well let me put it this waya Storya true story and was published in Reader’s Digests

One time, an atheist visited his friend, a Christian, both are Astronomers

The atheist was fascinated with the Solar system Model and asked who made it….

the Christian answered “nobody!!!” jokingly with a smile,

but the atheist persisted, knowing, his Christian friend had to be joking.

The Atheist continued, praising and really admiring the model….

then the Christian said, if somebody made the model, how could the real thing not exist???

end of story….

I looked for the original story as even with my minor edits to smooth out SIR ZIPS telling of it, I did find it in John MacArthur’s book, “The Battle for the Beginning: The Bible on Creation and the Fall of Adam” (p.84). 

  • The story is told of Charles Boyle, the fourth Earl of Orrery, a devoted Christian and brilliant thinker who was fascinated with Kepler’s and Newton’s discoveries about planetary motion and the intricate design of the universe. Boyle hired a watchmaker to design a working mechanical model of the solar system that demonstrated the motion of the planets around the sun. (Such a model is called an orrery, after its designer.) Boyle was showing the model to an atheistic scientist, who was very impressed with the clock¬work model. The atheist said, “That’s a very impressive model. Who made it for you?” “No one made it,” Boyle wryly replied. “It just happened.”

I am assuming the Reader’s Digest retelling of it included the idea tat one could not make a model of something if that “something” didn’t exist.

[SIR ZIP QUOTES METHSNAX]

Wow, thank you very much. I have read much of the material suggested, except for the books, although I believe they will contain a great deal that I should know to. I have read Genisis, and part of the Koran. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should form my own religion. It would be a varied form of atheism that mearly questions God existance in a more scientific manner, not completely deny it. This way, people can not believe in God, but still maintain an understanding of other religions. I hope that wasn’t a stupid idea. The only true problem I see with religion is that if you total the deaths caused in the name of God/god(s) compared to all other deaths in the world, you will see that most are in the name of God/god(s) or religions that promote non violence.

Science has limitations…. it depends on sensesbut GOD transcends beyond our senses

You can not just gain religion by intellectual means Religion is a way of life….

CRAZY MOFO:

First off I didn’t’ blame the video game, of course the person that commits the act is always to blame, but religion helps in fogging their choices.

Secondly I just wanna know why/how people can believe there is a “supernatural” being behind everything we see and do when there is:

Zero evidence,

Zero reason, and finally,

Zero logic for something like this to exist

If a being created the universe who created that being? It is much more logical to assume that the universe is a sea of energy and matter forming stars and planets and sometimes planets that can suit life (earth).

Religion has been wrong time and time again, after all, the churches thought the earth was flat and it was at the center of the universe. We can thank courageous astronomers for discovering the TRUTH and risking torture and ridicule.

HERESY:

Quote:

Zero evidence,

Zero reason, and finally,

Zero logic for something like this to exist

There is also ZERO evidence that there is not a creator.

Seriouslyhow can so many atheists be blindly one sided?

I’m an atheist, but I still see the argument.

Excuse me while I go vomit.

EL_CHUPACABRA STEPS IN THE RING:

Heretic ur logic is extremely flawed, if there is no divine being how could there be evidence that there is no divine being? Has anyone ever heard of the Schrödinger Cat experiment?

Basically if you put a live cat in a lead box and then you throw in a poisoned cat treat and then you seal the box, you have no way of knowing whether the cat is alive or dead therefore the cat exists in two states alive and dead.

We cannot know whether or not God exists so therefore God both exists and doesn’t exist. Furthermore because the cat is sealed in a box it makes no difference to us whether the cat is alive or dead

oh and one other thing for those of you who say that there cannot be an infinite cause for the creation of the universe you are quite wrong. There is a relatively new theory concerning time travel and the creation of the universe though I cannot recall the exact details, I think the book I read it in was called Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe. Something about at some point in time the universe creates itself in the past and ur left with the eternal question of which came first the chicken or the eggI dunno I can’t remember ill try and dig up the book and get back to you

HERESY:

Quote:

  • if there is no divine being how could there be evidence that there is no divine being?

um great argument….

I’ll just say this.

If there is a divine being, how could there be evidence that there is a divine being?

On both sides, there is a fair amount of theory and such, and although the creation theory has been losing some ground, is it really all that less relevant?

Some may say yes, while many say no. But because there is not sufficient evidence on either side, I choose to accept both as legitimate, although I lean towards atheism.

Is my logic flawed? Hardly. After all, there is no PROOF that there is no god – and that is all I say.

The cat cannot exist in two states. Regardless of what you knowit is in only one. Its like saying. “You don’t know if I am male or female.” I only exist in one state regardless of how much you know.

Is my logic flawed? No. Are most atheists horribly one sided? Yes. Is yours? Not looking promising.

EL_CHUPACABRA:

To you the cat does exist in two states. The cat is encased in solid lead you can’t see it, it can’t see you. How can you possibly know if the cat is alive or dead? Its all about perspective. And again how can there be proof that something doesn’t exist if it doesn’t exist? I want a 10 legged dog, try and prove to me it doesn’t exist.

HERESY:

No. It doesn’t. The cat exists in one state…. you simply cannot know which. This DOES NOT mean that it exists in two.

Of course, the fact that a dog will have ten legs is scientifically disproven. Or at least highly unlikely. it could happen but it probably wont.

God has not been disproven.

Try again

EL_CHUPACABRA:

OK I am not attempting to disprove God I’m attempting to prove that it’s impossible to prove or disprove God and yes, the cat does exist in two states, if you don’t believe so then tell me if the cat is alive or dead. 

Oh, and please show me scientific evidence that disproves the existence of a 10-legged dog.

HERESY:

It’s called DNA…. the genetic structure of a dog does not allow for the additional legs to be grown without mutation. Although additional legs have been formed before, iirc.

And basically, what I’m saying is that your 2 existences thing is bullshit. If you know what the existence is or not, there is still only ONE true way that it is. KNOWING has nothing to do with it. Your idea is RETARDED. There. I said it.

Anyway I’m basically just humoring you now In my mind I’ve decided that I’ve pretty much pwned youso I’m gonna go study for a math test….

EL_CHUPACABRA:

I would let you win this one because I am truly just as tired of arguing this point as you are, but I just don’t have it in me to bow to someone who does not even realize that the whole cat thing was not my idea in the first place. I’m in fact citing a well-known and accepted idea that was created by Schrodinger and is used in such fields as quantum mechanics. Also, unless you can show me a complete map of a dog’s genome and show me where the dog is constrained to 4 legs then you had better find some more concrete proof. Anyways study for your math test I’m sure you need to.

HERESY:

I realize that you are citing a few sources I’m simply saying that I don’t agree with them. Anyway, I was arguing a side which I don’t really support and I have massive finals tomorrow.

CRAZY MOFO:

I like the cat example, it produces the same problem we have here. We can’t prove there is or isn’t a creator. SO we must choose the most logical choice, and that is that there isn’t one.

And don’t say but why is that the most logical choice? Because I’m not gonna repeat myself as I am forced to in almost every thread I’m sick of it, you know how I feel on this

GIADDON:

Papa Giorgio: Obviously my “contradiction” was that I referred to God as a “he”, then called “him” amorphous. I was simply trying to use the conventional term regarding God, to avoid confusion. It’s mere semantics, and shouldn’t even be up for debate. If you prefer, I can call God “bullshit.”

And as for your “God was required to make humans” argument, my response stands: what made God? And if he just “is” why can’t the whole universe just “be?” That argument falls apart if you spend even a second of time thinking about it.

SirZap: What? I don’t understand what you are saying.

Heretic: Good attitude, and one I wish more people would share, both atheists and believers. As I said, there is no way to prove that there is no God, I just don’t believe in him, and I have presented my reasons.

El_Chupacabra: The cat occupies one stage only. Our observation is irrelevant to the truth.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:

MOFO (and others), you essentially said there is

  • “zero reason, and finally, zero logic for something like this to exist”

May I refer you again to my already post reasonably logical argument above:


JUMP


MOFO, you said:

  • “If a being created the universe who created that being?”

Quote:

The most prominent objection that is ever raised against a form of cosmological argument like this consists in asking, “Then what is the explanation for God’s existence?” This is most effective when done with a smugness of tone and deliberate emphasis of the word “God.”

The objection usually means to imply here that the cosmological argument will generate an infinite regress of explanations. To explain the existence of God, by the reasoning just used, it would seem that we need to postulate the existence of a Super-God. But then that being’s existence would need explaining by the activities of a Super-Duper-God, and so on, ad infinitum and absurdum (to infinity and absurdity).

This objection seems to just assume that God’s existence does not have a scientific or personal explanation, then it is unintelligible. But it should be by now what a defender of the argument will say to this.

The existence of God is intelligible not because it was caused by anything or anyone, but because it flows from his essence. This was the claim that the ontological argument made about God. God cannot fail to exist. God exists necessarily. It is God’s essential nature to exist. And in this regard, God is very different from anything in the universe. God’s existence logically follows from God’s essence. No other explanation for God is either necessary or possible. Thus, we don’t have to worry about postulating (theoretically supposing the existence of) other deities in an infinite regress (or infinite mess) of explanatory postulations.

God, as the ontological argument told us, is fundamentally different from the universe. The very concept of God, it contends, precludes God’s not existing. So we cannot even imagine God’s not existing and know with full detail what we are imagining, without contradiction. But we can with the universe. It does not seem to be at all the sort of thing whose essence is to exist. Its concept does not logically imply its reality in all sets of possible circumstances. And that is different from the concept of God as a greatest possible being.

Notice that the conclusion of this version of the cosmological argument is not “Therefore there is a God.” it is just that, if we are rational, we should believe that there is a God. But this in itself is a surprise to many people who associate religious belief not with rationality but instead with the irrational side of life. This argument contends not just that it is rational to believe, but that it is irrational not to believe.

Excerpted from Philosophy for Dummies, by Tom Morris, p.253.

MOFO, you said:

  • “Religion has been wrong time and time again, after all the churches thought the earth was flat and it was at the center of the universe.”

All not true Mofo?! In fact, the flat-earth theory is a myth, but you wouldn’t want to actually investigate that, because that would require putting your bias aside and looking into the matter yourselfI mean, you have already presupposed what your saying is true, right? The answer is yes, because you have emphatically stated these things to be true, thus proving the church to be false.

Before I go about taking more of your examples and showing you – and the others here – how you are wrong yet again, I want to make an analogy. Just for a moment, lets say you are right, lets say that the church thought the earth was flat, and also believed a geocentric universe (actually they did, but there is more to this story than simply this, I will shortly explain). What does this have to do with the truth of a matter, like, say, God’s existence? If the Son of Sam killed his victims merely for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, would that make the equation 2 + 2 = 4 wrong? No it wouldn’t, neither would the hypothetical that the church taught a flat earth. This has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Even if there were no Christians on earth, this would not falsify the truth claims of Christianity.

Okay, back to business. A very fun read is a book by Jeffrey Russell called, Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern History. Two other books worth mentioning are: Not So!: Popular Myths About America from Columbus to Clinton, by Paul Boller; and, 6 Modern Myths About Christianity and Western Civilization, by Philip Sampson.

The Bible clearly states the earth is round (Isaiah 40:22), the Hebrew root word used in this verse literally means sphericity, with the 3-D in mind.

  • Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
  • Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
  • Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
  • Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
  • Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
  • Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
  • Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
  • Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
  • Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

Etc.

As for geocentricism, the church rejected the interpretation of misused Scripture for geocentricism that the secular universities taught. The analogy would be if the church today accepted Darwinism.

Quote:

Creationists are often accused of trying to oppose science on purely theological terms. The argument usually contains a strong warning to remember the persecution of Galileo by the theologians of his own time. It continues, “History has proven that Galileo was correct and that the dogmatic religious authorities who opposed him were wrong.” With one simple illustration, scientists warn that any interference in scientific ideas by religious people is tantamount to religious persecution.

The historical account of Galileo’s struggle for acceptance is not, however, a black and white issue. In fact, it is one of the most interesting and complex historical events recorded. Galileo’s trial was not the simple conflict between science and religion so commonly pictured. It was a complex power struggle, fought upon the foundations of personal and professional pride, envy, and ambition.

The stage for this tragedy had been set a few years earlier during what is commonly referred to as the Protestant reformation. During the reformation, the Catholic Church’s authority had been called into question. Priests and laypeople had judged Rome as having forsaken true Christian beliefs. The reformation shook the Church at its very foundation of authority, causing it to lose much of its world power and influence. Eventually, at the council of Trent, the Catholic Church formed an index of literature which was forbidden to Catholics throughout the world. Included in this censor were any books that challenged traditional interpretations of the scripture.

Ironically, the traditional beliefs that Galileo opposed ultimately belonged to Aristotle, not to biblical exegesis. Pagan philosophy had become interwoven with traditional Catholic teachings during the time of Augustine. Therefore, the Church’s dogmatic retention of tradition was the major seat of controversy, not the Bible. It may also be noted that Pope Urban VIII was himself sympathetic to Galileo but was not willing to stand against the tide of controversy. In reality, the majority of persecution seemed to come from intellectual scientists whose monopoly of educational authority had been threatened. During Galileo’s time, education was primarily dominated by Jesuit and Dominican priests.

One of the most important aspects of Galileo’s “threat” to education is that he published his writings in Italian, rather than Latin, which was the official language of scholarship. Galileo was attempting to have his ideas accepted by common people, hoping that they would eventually filter into the educational institutions. Thus, Galileo was regarded as an enemy of the established scientific authorities and experienced the full weight of their influence and persecution.

In many ways, the historic controversy of creation vs. evolution has been similar to Galileo’s conflict, only with a reversal of roles. In the sixteenth century, Christian theism was the prevailing philosophy and the Catholic Church dominated the educational system. Those, like Galileo, who dedicated themselves to diligently search for truth found themselves at the unmerciful hands of the authorities whose theories they threatened. In the twentieth century, however, the philosophy of naturalism has become dominant, and science occupies the position of influence. Again, we note that the majority (regardless of whether it is right or wrong) will persecute those who dare to dispute their “traditional” theories; today the questionable theory of evolution is being challenged.

The lesson to be learned from Galileo, it appears, is not that the Church held too tightly to biblical truths; but rather that it did not hold tightly enough. It allowed Greek philosophy to influence its theology and held to tradition rather than to the teachings of the Bible. We must hold strongly to Biblical doctrine which has been achieved through sure methods of exegesis. We must never be satisfied with dogmas built upon philosophic traditions.

Ref: What is the lesson that Christians should learn from Galileo? | See also: Geocentrism: History and Background

[Atheist Daniel Dennet likened flat-earthers to creations, however, the president of the Flat Earth Society is a Virginian man named Daniel Shenton. He believes in Evolution as well as Climate Change. See CROSS EXAMINED]

Mofo, again, knowledge is good, your hasty assumptions are not.

SIRZAP:

GIADDON: Of course, you are a non-believer. If you are intelligent enough, or at least knowledgeable about what I said, then you will understand what I’m saying. Nothing personal, just my opinion about you.

GOD is GOD, believe it or not. simple as that.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:

GIADDON, you said:

  • “It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as God”

Amorphous means:

  1. lacking definite form; having no specific shape; formless: the amorphous clouds.
  2. of no particular kind or character; indeterminate; having no pattern or structure; unorganized: an amorphous style; an amorphous personality.

Don’t you see?

“To say that we cannot know anything about God is to say something about God; it is to say that if there is a God, he is unknowable. But in that case, he is not entirely unknowable, for the agnostic certainly thinks that we can know one thing about him: That nothing else can be known about him. Unfortunately, the position that we can know exactly one thing about God – his unknowability in all respects except this – is equally unsupportable, for why should this one thing be an exception? How could we know that any possible God would be of such a nature that nothing else could be known about him? On what basis could we rule out his knowability in all other respects but this one? The very attempt to justify the claim confutes it, for the agnostic would have to know a great many things about God in order to know he that couldn’t know anything else about him”

Norman Geisler & Paul Hoffman, editors, Why I Am a Christian: Leading Thinkers Explain Why They Believe (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2001), p. 54.

I’m surprised I had to point that out again.

EL_CHUPACABRA:

GIADDON, I will pose to you the same question that I did to Heretic: Is the cat alive or dead? And please note that the box is sealed and there is no way to see in or hear anything or have any sort of interaction with the box. There is also enough oxygen to last for several days. So after say 30 mins is the cat alive or dead?

CRAZY MOFO:

PAPA GIORGIO, the reason you and I cannot communicate is because you already accept that there is a god where I do not.

It just does not make any sense to me. Humans are animals, no other animal on the earth assembles and contemplates this like we do. God is just a term made up by humans. And if there is some sort of creator, wtf would it be? Certainly it would not be a human form right if you say it created humans.

I will tell you what god is, it is energy. Energy and matter in the universe. You go on and on talking about god this god that. Can you define god? Why would a being just create all this **** we have in the universe.

I know my method of arguing is weaker than yours, but that is because I’m just getting frustrated. You keep attacking my intelligence, when you are the high school dropout. I’m currently in college and I talk with my professors regularly about astronomy and philosophy. I also attend free night classes on astronomical events and up comings. Such as the alignment of Mars, which is coming up soon. But anyways I’m getting off track, so I’ll let you respond to what I presented you with.

ANDWARF CHIMES IN:

[ANDWARF QUOTES EL_CHUPACABRA] Giaddon I will pose to you the same question that I did to Heretic: Is the cat alive or dead? And please note that the box is sealed and there is no way to see in or hear anything or have any sort of interaction with the box. There is also enough oxygen to last for several days. So after say 30 mins is the cat alive or dead?

The act of not knowing does not affect the state of the cat!

I don’t know how many people there are in China, but that does not affect the amount that are actually there!

PREATOR ANTRAX:

[PREATOR ANTRAX QUOTES EL_CHUPACABRA] oh and one other thing for those of you who say that there cannot be an infinite cause for the creation of the universe you are quite wrong.  There is a relatively new theory concerning time travel and the creation of the universe though i cannot recall the exact details, i think the book i read it in was called Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe.  Something about at some point in time the universe creates itself in the past and ur left with the eternal question of which came first the chicken or the egg…i dunno i can’t remember ill try and dig up the book and get back to you

I think what you are referring to is Causal Time Loops. I’ve heard that they have been logically applied to the origin of the universe. Basically it goes like this; the cause of the universe is the effect in an infinite loop. Whilst this is difficult to comprehend it involves no logical fallacies. It is merely experience which brings us to believe that the effect is always caused, and never it’s own cause. It’s an interesting explanation, I really enjoy time-based philosophy, hence why I took a class in it. Causal Time Loops are an incredibly interesting concept. I’d encourage you all to read up on them, since they explore many concepts that are shown in sci-fi movies of today.

[PREATOR ANTRAX QUOTES PAPA GIORGIO] (he quotes my first “Contingent Being” example and then says….)  

This argument only works if all premises are correct, and I can’t see any reason why you can’t deny these premises. Both ‘a’ and ‘b’ of P1 can be denied, although ‘b’ requires the introduction of causal time loops as I stated above. You can’t just post an argument and assume that it is correct, the logic is perfect, but the premises aren’t necessary and whilst that makes this argument cogent it doesn’t assure its validity.

KAIGUN:

[KAIGUN QUOTES CRAZY MOFO] I like the cat example, it produces the same problem we have here.  We can’t prove there is or isn’t a creator.  SO we must choose the most logical choice, and that is that there isn’t one. And don’t say but why is that the most logical choice?  Because i’m not gonna repeat myself as I am forced to in almost every thread i’m sick of it, you know how I feel on this

Ok, I won’t ask you why you think its the most logical choice. I will tell you that you blantantly wrong. It is not the most logical choice. To paraphrase Heretic, if neither side can adequately prove their case, then the most logical choice would not be to side with either.

I used to think I was an atheist, until I discovered the vast majority of atheists were atheists simply because it supposedly gave them justification for their prejudice against Christianity. I didn’t want to be associated with such hatred and ignorance. I don’t see how anyone who values logic and knowledge could blindly believe in anything, be it the existence of God, non-existence of God, love or anything else for that matter.

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:

No MOFO, the reason you and I cannot communicate is because you state things – over-and-over-again – that just aren’t true. I just showed you in my last post the many examples and misuses you make of the limited information you have. Another reason we cannot communicate is that you refuse to suspend your belief for a little while and look into the matter for yourself (I suggest the book by the atheist). I wasn’t born into a Christian family? I was an atheist (or thought I was) for many years. I didn’t want to stop or suspend my beliefs because this would mean changing my life style – or altering it. I grew up indoctrinated with evolution, all my parents watched were PBS shows and Carl Sagan by-lines.

However, when I started to actually look into the matter myself, I was told that the evidence was so massive that any “intellectual” person would be a fool not to accept it. Naturally I didn’t want to be a fool. So when I finally started to dig for this evidence, all I turned up were a lot of “soft” theories about how things “might have happened.” There was no solid empirical evidence for evolution. And after many years of reading, and looking into the matter, I found more evidence for the creation model and evidence for God’s existence than rock turning into man (the atheists Bible).

As far as God being energy, energy is not eternal; it was made at the Big Bang. Since matter and energy didn’t exist at one point, and everything that comes to exist has a cause, what caused the Big Bang?

MOFO, I am a high school drop out. And all I am pointing out is that you say stuff like, “the church taught a flat-earth/geocentric universe and this is one of the many reasons I don’t believe in God, which is what you imply implicitly and explicitly, you are basing your beliefs on something that isn’t true. And I have shown many of these you have brought up in your repertoire of “evidences” you use for, a) evolution; and b) evidences you use against God. I am not attacking you as much as I am challenging you to see that you have accepted a worldview not based on evidence, logic, or rational/evidential prodding, but only on bias against anything metaphysical. You, are a philosophical materialist, a naturalist by choice, not by evidence.

Once you realize this, you may wish to look into the matter more deeply, for yourself, not because Papa GiorgioG says so. What college do you go to (what area), I bet there may be a creationist professor that teaches there that I can find for you (PM me).

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:

ANTRAX, are you a contingent being? How could this be denied?

PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:

ANTRAX, are you a contingent being? How could this be denied?

 

 

 

 

 

Ghost In The Machine – Richard Milton

(Posted here originally June 2020. Updated PDF link.)

This is chapter 15 (The Ghost In The Machine) from Richard Milton excellent book entitled [originally published Jan 1, 1992], “SHATTERING THE MYTHS OF DARWINISM(PDF), as well as a bit from near the end of the book regarding a “spellchecking” program to shore up his ideas from chapter fifteen. It really has to do with responding to the idea that a computer program is shown to “evolve.” That in some way there is an increase in novel information in the program that is adding to the specificity of the program apart from the designers/software engineers.

I would be remiss to not link to an article that also goes through this example well:

Enjoy… mind you this book was read by me in 1998, but the ideas here have been sustained through today.


Ghost in the Machine
pp. 167-176


[167>] Russel and Seguin’s 1982 picture of a human-looking “evolved” version of a dinosaur was an impressive feat combining science and imagination in a constructive and entertaining way. Yet few in 1982 foresaw that in little more than a decade, over 100 million people around the world would pay to be scared by the even more impressive feat of the computer generated dinosaurs of “Jurassic Park”.

Nothing that has entered the evolution debate since Darwin’s time has promised to illuminate the subject so much as the modern computer and its apparently limitless ability to represent, on the monitor-screen, compelling visual solutions to the most abstruse mathematical questions.

The information handling capacity of electronic data processing, with its obvious analogy to DNA, has been enthusiastically enlisted by computer-literate Darwinists as offering powerful evidence for their theory; while genetic software systems, said to emulate the processes of genetic mutation and natural selection at speeds high enough to make the process visible, have become a feature of most up-to-date biology laboratories.

The computer has been put to many ingenious uses in the service of Darwinist theory. And it has changed the minds of not a few skeptics by its powerful visual imagery and uncanny ability to bring extinct creatures – or even creatures that never lived – to life in front [168>] of us. But, compelling though the visual images are, how much confidence should we put in the computer as a guide to the evolution of life?

In his book The Blind Watchmaker Richard Dawkins describes a computer program he wrote which randomly generates symmetrical figures from dots and lines. These figures, to a human eye, have a resemblance to a variety of objects. Dawkins gives some of them insect and animal names, such as bat, spider, fox or caddis fly. Others he gives names like lunar lander, precision balance, spitfire, lamp and crossed sabers.

Dawkins calls these creations “biomorphs”, meaning life shapes or living shapes, a term he borrows from fellow zoologist Desmond Morris. He also feels very strongly that in using a computer program to create them, he is in some way simulating evolution itself. His approach can be understood from this extract:

Nothing in my biologist’s intuition, nothing in my 20 years experience of programming computers, and nothing in my wildest dreams, prepared me for what actually emerged on the screen. I can’t remember exactly when in the sequence it first began to dawn on me that an evolved resemblance to something like an insect was possible. With a wild surmise, I began to breed generation after generation, from whichever child looked most like an insect. My incredulity grew in parallel with the evolving resemblance…. Admittedly they have eight legs like a spider, instead of six like an insect, but even so! I still cannot conceal from you my feeling of exultation as I first watched these exquisite creatures emerging before my eyes.[1]

Dawkins not only calls his computer drawings “biomorphs”, he gives some of them the names of living creatures. He also refers to them as “quasi-biological” forms and in a moment of excitement calls them “exquisite creatures”. He plainly believes that in some way they correspond to the real world of living animals and insects. But they do not correspond in any way at all with living things, except in the purely trivial way that he sees some resemblance in their shapes. The only thing about the “biomorphs” that is [169>] biological is Richard Dawkins, their creator. As far as the “spitfire” and the “lunar lander” are concerned there is not even a fancied biological resemblance.

The program he wrote and the computer he used have no analog at all in the real biological world. Indeed, if he set out to create an experiment that simulates evolution, he has only succeeded in making one that simulates special creation, with himself in the omnipotent role.

His program is not a true representation of random mutation coupled with natural selection. On the contrary it is dependent on artificial selection in which he controls he sees some resemblance in their shapes. The only thing about the “biomorphs” that is biological is Richard Dawkins, their creator. As far as the “spitfire” and the “lunar lander” are concerned there is not even a fancied biological resemblance.

The program he wrote and the computer he used have no analog at all in the real biological world. Indeed, if he set out to create an experiment that simulates evolution, he has only succeeded in making one that simulates special creation, with himself in the omnipotent role.

His program is not a true representation of random mutation coupled with natural selection. On the contrary it is dependent on artificial selection in which he controls the rate of occurrence of mutations. Despite Dawkins’s own imaginative interpretations, and even with the deck stacked in his favor, his biomorphs show no real novelty arising. There are no cases of bears turning into whales.

There is also no failure in his program: his biomorphs are not subject to fatal consequences of degenerate mutations like real living things. And, most important of all, he chooses which are the lucky individuals to receive the next mutation – it is not decided by fate – and of course he chooses the most promising ones (“I began to breed from whichever child looked most like an insect.”) That is why they have ended up looking like recognizable images from his memory. If his mutations really occurred randomly, as in the real world, Dawkins would still be sitting in front of his screen watching a small dot and waiting for it do something.

Above all, his computer experiment falsifies the most important central claim of mechanistic Darwinian thinking; that, through natural processes, living things could come into being without any precursor. What Dawkins has shown is that, if you want to start the evolutionary ball rolling, you need some form of design to take a hand in the proceedings, just as he himself had to sit down and program his computer.

In fact, his experiment shows very much the same sort of results that field work in biology and zoology has shown for the past hundred years: there is no evidence for beneficial spontaneous genetic mutation; there is no evidence for natural selection (except as an empty tautology); there is no evidence for either as significant evolutionary mechanisms. There is only evidence of an unquenchable optimism among Darwinists that given enough [170>] time, anything can happen – the argument from probability.

But although Dawkins’s program does not qualify as a simulation of random genetic mutation coupled with natural selection, it does highlight at least one very important way in which computer programs resemble genetic processes. Each instruction in a program must be carefully considered by the programmer as to both its immediate effect on the computer hardware and its effects on other parts of the program. The letters and numbers which the programmer uses to write the instructions have to be written down with absolute precision with regard to the vocabulary and syntax of the programming language he uses in order for the computer system to function at all. Even the most trivial error can lead to a complete malfunction. In 1977, for example, an attempt by NASA to launch a weather satellite from Cape Canaveral ended in disaster when the launch vehicle went off course shortly after takeoff and had to be destroyed. Subsequent investigation by NASA engineers found that the accident was caused by failure of the onboard computer guidance system – because a single comma had been misplaced in the guidance program.

Anyone who has programmed a computer to perform the simplest task in the simplest language – Basic for instance – will understand the problem. If you make the simplest error in syntax, misplacing a letter, a punctuation mark or even a space, the program will not run at all.

In just the same way, each nucleotide has to be “written” in precisely the correct order and in precisely the correct location in the DNA molecule for the offspring to remain viable, and, as described earlier, major functional disorders in humans, animals and plants are caused by the loss or displacement of a single DNA molecule, or even a single nucleotide within that molecule.

In order to simulate neo-Darwinist evolution on his computer, it is not necessary for Dawkins to devise complex programs that seek to simulate insect life. All he has to do is to write a program containing a large number of instructions (3000 million instructions if he wishes to simulate human DNA) that continually regenerates its own program code, but randomly interferes with the code in trivial ways, such as transposing, shifting or missing characters. (The system must be set to restart itself after each fatal “birth”.)

[171>] The result of this experiment would be positive if the system ever develops a novel function that was not present in the original programming. One way of defining “novelty” would be to design the program so that, initially, its sole function was to replicate itself (a computer virus). A novel function would then be anything other than mere reproduction. In practice, however, I do not expect the difficulty of defining what constitutes a novelty to pose any problem. It is extremely improbable that Dawkins’s program will ever work again after the first generation, just as in real life, mutations cause genetic defects, not improvements.

Outside of the academic world there are a number of important commercial applications based on computer simulations that deserve to be seriously examined. A good example of this is in the field of aircraft wing design where computers have been used by aircraft engineers to develop the optimum airfoil profile. In the past wing design has been based largely on repetitive trial and error methods. A hypothetical wing shape is drawn up; a physical model is made and is aerodynamically tested in the wind tunnel. Often the results of such an empirical design approach are predictable: lengthening the upper wing curve, in relation to the lower, generally increases the upward thrust obtained. But sometimes results are very unpredictable, as when complex patterns of turbulence combine at the trailing edge to produce drag, which lowers wing efficiency, and causes destructive vibration.

Engineers at Boeing Aircraft tried a new approach. They created a computer model which was able to “mutate” a primitive wing shape at random – to stretch it here or shrink it there. They also fed into the model rules that would enable the computer to simulate testing the resulting design in a computerized version of the “wind tunnel”- the rules of aerodynamics.

The engineers say this process has resulted in obtaining wing designs offering maximum thrust and minimum drag and turbulence, more quickly than before and without any human intervention once the process has been set in motion.

Designers have made great savings in time compared with previous methods and the success of the computer in this field has given rise to a new breed of application dubbed “genetic software”. Indeed, on the face of it, the system is acting in a Darwinian manner. The [172>] computer (an inanimate object) has produced an original and intelligent design (comparable, say, with a natural structure such as a bird’s wing) by random mutation of shape combined with selection according to rules that come from the natural world – the laws of aerodynamics. If the computer can do this in the laboratory in a few hours or days, what could nature not achieve in millions of years?

The fallacies on which this case is constructed are not very profound but they do need to be nailed down. In a recently published popular primer on molecular biology, Andrew Scott’s Vital Principles, this very example is given under the heading “the creativity of evolution”. The process itself is called “computer generated evolution” as though it were analogous to an established natural process of mutation and selection.[2]

The most important fallacy in this argument is the idea that somehow a result has occurred which is independent of, or in some way beyond the engineers, who merely started the machine by pressing a button. Of course, the fact is that a human agency has designed and built the computer and programmed it to perform the task in question. As with the previous experiment, this begs the only important question in evolution theory: could complex structures have arisen spontaneously by random natural processes without any precursor? Like all other computer simulation experiments, this one actually makes a reasonable case for special creation – or some form of vitalist-directed design – because it specifically requires a creator to build the computer and devise and implement the program in the first place.

However, there are other important fallacies too. The only reason that the Boeing engineers are able to take the design produced on paper by their computer and translate that design into an aircraft that flies, is because they are employing an immense body of knowledge – not possessed by the com put er – regarding the properties of materials from which the aircraft will be made and the manufacturing processes that will be used to make it. The computer’s wing is merely an outline on paper, an idea: it is of no more significance to aviation than a wave outline on the beach or a wind outline in the desert. The real wing has to actually fly in the air with real passengers. The decisive events that make that idea into a reality are a long, complex sequence of human operations [173>] and judgments that involve not only the shaping and fastening of metal for wings but also the design and manufacture of airframes and jet engines. These additional complexities are beyond the capacity of the computer, not merely in practice but in principle, because computers cannot even make a cup of coffee, let alone an airliner, without being instructed every step of the way.

In order for a physical structure like an aircraft wing to evolve by spontaneous random means, it is necessary for natural selection to do far more than select an optimum shape. It must also select the correct materials, the correct manufacturing methods (to avoid failure in service) and the correct method of integrating the new structure into its host creature. These operations involve genetic engineering principles which are presently unknown. And because they are unknown by us, they cannot be programmed into a computer.

There is also an important practical reason why the computer simulation is not relevant to synthetic evolution: because an aircraft wing differs from a natural wing in a fundamental way. The aircraft wing is passive, since the forward movement of the aircraft is derived from an engine. A natural wing like a bird’s, however, has to provide upthrust and the forward motion necessary to generate that lift making it a complex, articulated active mechanism. The engineering design problem of evolving a passive wing is merely a repetitive mechanical task – that is why it is suitable for computerization. So far, no-one has suggested programming a computer to design a bird’s wing by random mutation because the suggestion would be seen as ludicrous. Even if all of the world’s computers were harnessed together, they would be unable to take even the most elementary steps needed to design a bird’s wing unless they were told in advance what they were aiming at and how to get there.

If computers are no use to evolutionists as models of the hypothetical selection process, they are proving invaluable in another area of biology; one that seems to hold out much promise to Darwinists – the field of genetics. Since Watson and Crick elucidated the structure of the DNA molecule, and since geneticists began unraveling the meaning of the genetic code, the center of gravity of evolution theory has gradually shifted away from the earth sciences – geology and pale-ontology – toward molecular biology.

[174>] This shift in emphasis has occurred not only because of the attraction of the new biology as holding the answers to many puzzling questions, but also because the traditional sciences have proved ultimately sterile as a source of decisive evidence. The gaps in the fossil record, the incomplete-ness of the geological strata, and the ambiguity of the evidence from comparative anatomy, ultimately caused Darwinists to give up and look somewhere else for decisive evidence. Thanks to molecular biology and computer science they now have somewhere else to try.

Darwinists seem to have drawn immense comfort from their recent discoveries at the cellular level and beyond, behaving and speaking as though the new discoveries of biology represent a triumphant vindication of their long-held beliefs over the irrational ideas of vitalists. Yet the gulf between what Darwinists claim for molecular biological discoveries and what those discoveries actually show is only too apparent to any objective evaluation.

Consider these remarks by Francis Crick, justly famous as one of the biologists who cracked the genetic code, and equally well known as an ardent supporter of Darwinist evolution. In his 1966 book Molecules and Men, in which he set out to criticize vitalism, Crick asked which of the various molecular biological processes are likely to be the seat of the “vital principle”.[3] “It can hardly be the action of the enzymes,” he says, “because we can easily make this happen in a test tube. Moreover most enzymes act on rather simple organic molecules which we can easily synthesize.”

There is one slight difficulty but Crick easily deals with it; “It is true that at the moment nobody has synthesized an actual enzyme chemically, but we can see no difficulty in doing this in principle, and in fact I would predict quite confidently that it will be done within the next five or ten years.”

A little later, Crick says of mitochondria (important objects in the cell that also contain DNA):

It may be some time before we could easily synthesise such an object, but eventually we feel that there should be no gross difficulty in putting a mitochondrion together from its component parts.

This reservation aside, it looks as if any system of [175>] enzymes could be made to act without invoking any special principles, or without involving material that we could not synthesize in the laboratory. [4]

There is no question that Crick and Watson’s decoding of the DNA molecule is a brilliant achievement and one of the high points of twentieth-century science. But this success seems to me to have led many scientists to expect too much as a result.

Crick’s early confidence that an enzyme would be produced synthetically within five or ten years has not been borne out and biologists are further than ever from achieving such a synthesis. Indeed, reading and rereading the words above with the benefit of hindsight I cannot help but interpret them as saying “we are unable to synthesize any significant part of a cell at present, but this reservation aside, we are able to synthesize any part of the cell.”

Certainly great strides have been made. William Shrive, writing in the McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, says, “The complete amino acid sequence of several enzymes has been determined by chemical methods. By X-ray crystallographic methods it has even been possible to deduce the exact three-dimensional molecular structure of a few enzymes.”[5] But despite these advances no-one has so far synthesized anything remotely as complex as an enzyme or any other protein molecule.

Such a synthesis was impossible when Crick wrote in 1966 and remains impossible today. It is probably because there is a world of difference between having a neat table that shows the genetic code for all twenty amino acids (Alanine = GCA, Praline = CCA and so on) and knowing how to manufacture a protein. These complex molecules do not simply assemble themselves from a mixture of ingredients like a cup of tea. Something else is needed. What the something else is remains conjectural. If it is chemical it has not been discovered; if it is a process it is an unknown process; if it is a “vital principle” it has not yet been recognized. Whatever the something is, it is presently impossible to build a case either for Darwinism or against vitalism out of what we have learned of the cell and the molecules of which it is composed.

It is easy to see why evolutionists should be so excited about cellular discoveries because the mechanisms they have found appear to [176>] be very simple. But however simple they may seem, as of yet no-one has succeeded in synthesizing any significant original structure from raw materials. We know the code for the building blocks; we don’t know the instructions for building a house with them.

Indeed, the discoveries of biochemistry and molecular biology have raised some rather awkward questions for Darwinists, which they have yet to address satisfactorily. For example, the existence of genetically very simple biological entities, such as viruses, seems to support Darwinist ideas about the origin of life. One can imagine all sorts of primitive life forms and organisms coming into existence in the primeval ocean and it seems only natural that one should find entities that are part way between the living and the nonliving – stepping stones to life as it were. It is only to be expected, says Richard Dawkins, that the simplest form of self-replicating object would merely be that part of the DNA program which says only “copy me”, which is essentially what a virus is.

The problem here is that viruses lack the ability to replicate unless they inhabit a host cell – a fully functioning cell with its own genetic replication mechanisms. So the first virus must have come after the first cell, not before in a satisfyingly Darwinian processes.

But despite minor unresolved problems of this kind Darwinists still have one remaining card to play in support of their theory. It is the strongest card in their hand and the most powerful and decisive evidence in favor of Darwinian evolutionary processes.

[….]


pp. 223-227


[223>] Earlier on I referred to computers and their programs as a fruitful source of comparison with genetic processes since both are concerned with the storage and reliable transmission of large quantities of information. Arguing from analogy is a dangerous practice, but there is one phenome-non connected with computer systems that could be of some importance in understanding biological information processing strategies.

The phenomenon has to do with the computer’s ability to refer to a master list or template and to highlight any exceptions to this master list that it encounters during processing. This “exception reporting” is profoundly important in information processing. For instance, this book was prepared using a word-processing program that has a spelling checker. When invoked, the spell checker reads the typescript of the book and compares each word with its built-in dictionary, highlighting as potential mistakes those it does not recognize. Of course, it will encounter words that are spelled correctly but are not found in a normal dictionary – such as “deoxyribonucleic acid”. But the program is clever enough to allow me to add the novel word to the dictionary, so that the next time it is encountered it will be accepted as correct instead of reported as an exception – as long as I spell it correctly.

In other words, the spelling checker isn’t really a spelling checker. It has no conception of correct spelling. It is merely a mechanism [224>] for reporting exceptions. Using these methods, programmers can get computers to behave in an apparently intelligent or purposeful way when they are really only obeying simple mechanical rules. Not unnaturally, this gives Darwinists much encouragement to believe that life processes may at root be just as simple and mechanical.

In cell biology there are natural chemical properties of complex molecules that lend them-selves to automatic checking and excepting of this kind. For example many molecules are stereospecific – they will attach only to certain other specific molecules and only in special positions. There are also much more complex forms of exception reporting, for instance as part of the brain’s (of if you prefer, the mind’s) cognitive processes: as when we see and recognize a single face in the crowd or hear our name mentioned at a noisy cocktail party.

In the case of the spelling checker, the behavior of the system can be made to look more and more intelligent through a process of learning if, every time it highlights a new word, I add that word to its internal dictionary. If I continue for a long enough time, then eventually, in principle, the system will have recorded every word in the English language and will highlight only words that are indeed misspelled. It will have achieved the near-miraculous levels of efficiency and repeatability that we are used to seeing in molecular biological processes. But something strange has also been happening at the same time – or, rather, two strange things.

The first is that as its vocabulary grows, the spelling checker becomes less efficient at drawing to my attention possible mistakes. This unexpected result comes about in the fallowing way. Remember, the computer knows nothing of spelling, it merely reports exceptions to me. To begin with, it has only, say, 50,000 standard words in its dictionary. This size of dictionary really only covers the common everyday words plus a modest number of proper nouns (for capital cities, common surnames and the like) and doesn’t leave much room for unusual words. It would, for instance include a word like ‘great’ but not the less-frequently used word “grate”.

The result is that if I accidentally type “grate” when I really mean “great”, the spell checker will draw it to my attention. If however, I enlarge the dictionary and add the word “grate”, the spell [225>]checker will ignore it in future, even though the chances are that it will occur only as a typing mis take – except in the rare case where I am writing about coal fires or cookery.

One can generalize this case by saying that when the dictionary has an optimum size of vo-cabulary, I get the best of both worlds: it points out misspellings of the most common words and reports anything unusual which in most cases probably will be an error. (Obviously to work at optimum efficiency the size of dictionary should be matched to the vocabulary of the writer). As the dictionary grows in volume it becomes more efficient in one way, highlighting only real spelling errors, but less efficient in another: it becomes more probable that my typing errors will spell a real word – one that will not be reported – but not the word I mean to use. Paradoxically, although the spelling checker is more efficient, the resulting book is full of contextual errors: ‘pubic’ instead of ‘public’, ‘grate’ instead of ‘great’ and so on.

It requires a human intelligence -a real spelling checker, not a mechanical exception reporter to make sure that the intended result is produced.

I said two strange things have been happening while I have been adding words to the spelling checker. The second is the odd occasion when the system has highlighted a real spelling mistake to me- say, “problem” instead of “problem” – and I have mistakenly told the computer to add the word to its dictionary. This, of course, has the very unfortunate result that in future it will cease to highlight a real spelling mistake and will pass it as correct. The error is no longer an exception it is now a dictionary word.

Under what circumstances am I most likely to issue such a wrong instruction? It is most likely to happen with words that I type most frequently and that I habitually mistype. Anyone who uses a keyboard every day knows that there are many such ‘favorite’ misspelled words that get typed over and over. Once again, only a real spelling checker, a human brain, can spot the error and correct it.

The reason that the computer’s spellchecker breaks down under these circumstances is that the simple mechanisms put in place do not work from first principles. They do not work in what electronics engineers call ‘real time’ (they are not in touch with the real world) and do not employ any real intelligent understanding [226>] of the tasks they are being called on to perform. So although the computer continues to work perfectly as it was designed to, it becomes more and more corrupted from the standpoint of its original function.

I believe that this analogy may well have some relevance to Darwinists’ belief that biological processes can at root be as simple as the spelling checker. It is easy to think of any number of simple cell replication mechanisms that rely on exception reporting of this kind. I believe that if biological processes were so simple, they too would become functionally corrupt unless there is some underlying or overall design process to which the simple mechanisms answer globally, and which is capable of taking action to correct mistakes. This is the mechanism that we see in action in the case of the “eyeless fly”, Drosophila; in Driesch’s experiment with the sea urchin and Balinsky’s with the eyes of amphibians; the ‘field’ that governs the metamorphosis of the butterfly or the reconstitution of the cells of sponges and vertebrates.

Darwinists believe that the only overall control process is natural selection, but the natural selection mechanism could not account for the cases referred to above. Natural selection works on populations, not individuals. It is capable only of tending to make creatures with massively fatal genetic defects die in infancy, or to make populations that are geographically dispersed eventually produce sterile hybrid offspring. It is such a poor feedback mechanism in the sense of exercising an overall regulating effect that it has failed even to eliminate major congenital diseases. Natural selection offers only death or glory: there is no genetic engineering nor holistic supervision of the organism’s integrity. Yet we are asked to believe that a mechanism of such crudity can creatively supervise a program of gene mutation that will restore sight to the eyeless fly.

This is plainly wishful thinking. The key question remains: what is the location of the supervisory agency that oversees somatic development? How does it work? What is it’s connection with the cell structure of the body?


FOOTNOTES


  • Richard Milton, Shattering the Myths of Darwinism (Rochester, VT: Park Street Press, 1997), 167-176; 223-226.

(Editor’s Note. The author did not footnote what page he was quoting from, he only cited the work itself)

[1] Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (London, England: Pearson Longman, 1986).

[2] Andrew Scott, Vital Principles: The Molecular Mechanisms of Life (Oxford, England: Blackwell Publishers, 1988).

[3] Francis Crick, Of Molecules and Men (Seattle, WA: Univ of Washington Press, 1966).

[4] Ibid.

[5] William Shrive, Enymes, in the McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology (New York, NY: McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1982).

Evolution is “Evolving” ~ The Failure of Neo-Darwinism (UPDATED)

This is not to suggest that new paradigms triumph ultimately through some mystical aesthetic. On the contrary, very few men desert a tradition for these reasons alone. Often those who do turn out to have been misled. But if a paradigm is ever to triumph it must gain some first supporters, men who will develop it to the point where hardheaded arguments can be produced and multiplied. And even those arguments, when they come, are not individually decisive. Because scientists are reasonable men, one or another argument will ultimately persuade many of them. But there is no single argument that can or should persuade them all. Rather than a single group conversion, what occurs is an increasing shift in the distribution of professional allegiances.

At the start a new candidate for paradigm may have few sup­porters, and on occasions the supporters’ motives may be sus­pect. Nevertheless, if they are competent, they will improve it, explore its possibilities, and show what it would be like to belong to the community guided by it. And as that goes on, if the paradigm is one destined to win its fight, the number and strength of the persuasive arguments in its favor will increase. More scientists will then be converted, and the exploration of the new paradigm will go on. Gradually the number of experi­ments, instruments, articles, and books based upon the para­digm will multiply. Still more men, convinced of the new view’s fruitfulness, will adopt the new mode of practicing normal science, until at last only a few elderly hold-outs remain.

Thomas S. Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 2nd Edition (Chicago, IL: Chicago University Press, 1970), 158-159

(This is recovered audio from Vimeo*) I wanted to isolate how Denis Noble defines “what a gene is”? To wit, a great question starts out the above video — and as science advances, the neo-Darwinian model weakens immensely. See Dr. Noble’s lecture on this (here:

British Biologist Denis Noble Debunks… ). I do wish to add that biology… our physiology really, is also made via influences on the quantum level. ALL THIS is to say that the simplistic view of “gene to organism” is a lagging theory NOT based in current science… AND, it makes the irreducible complexity issue worse for the naturalist.

A great definition of the Modern Synthesis can be found HERE

The first two articles are a report about the Royal Society meeting in regards to the failure of the neo-Darwinian model. The Royal Society is the world’s most distinguished and historic scientific organizations. The first article is an introduction to the upcoming event, the second is a partial description of it. What follows it are articles from scientific literature calling into question the General Theory of Evolution (GTE/NDT).

  • SCIENCE ALERT, “The world’s top biologists have met to discuss whether we should update evolution: Bringing Darwin’s theory into the 21st century,” Nov. 28, 2016

The world’s top biologists have met to discuss whether we should update evolution: Bringing Darwin’s theory into the 21st century. (Science Alert)

Evolutionary biology has helped scientists understand why the world looks the way it does for more than 150 years, since Charles Darwin released On the Origin of Species back in 1859.

But a team of researchers has now proposed an update to our current understanding of evolution – one that could completely shift our understanding of how species evolve.

Some of the world’s best known biologists just converged in London as part of a Royal Society meeting to discuss if it’s time to upgrade one of the most fundamental theories in science.

[….]

The researchers also argue that natural selection isn’t necessarily the primary force in evolution – the limitations of development and the environments organisms live in can also play a role.

  • MINA, “Scientists see the obvious, confirm Darwinism is Broken,” Dec. 14, 2016

Darwinian theory is broken and may not be fixable. That was the takeaway from a meeting last month organized by the world’s most distinguished and historic scientific organization, which went mostly unreported by the media. 

The three-day conference at the Royal Society in London was remarkable in confirming something that advocates of intelligent design (ID), a controversial scientific alternative to evolution, have said for years. ID proponents point to a chasm that divides how evolution and its evidence are presented to the public, and how scientists themselves discuss it behind closed doors and in technical publications. This chasm has been well hidden from laypeople, yet it was clear to anyone who attended the Royal Society conference, as did a number of ID-friendly scientists.

[….]

The opening presentation at the Royal Society by one of those world-class biologists, Austrian evolutionary theorist Gerd Müller, underscored exactly Meyer’s contention. Dr. Müller opened the meeting by discussing several of the fundamental “explanatory deficits” of “the modern synthesis,” that is, textbook neo-Darwinian theory. According to Müller, the as yet unsolved problems include those of explaining:

-Phenotypic complexity (the origin of eyes, ears, body plans, i.e., the anatomical and structural features of living creatures);

-Phenotypic novelty, i.e., the origin of new forms throughout the history of life (for example, the mammalian radiation some 66 million years ago, in which the major orders of mammals, such as cetaceans, bats, carnivores, enter the fossil record, or even more dramatically, the Cambrian explosion, with most animal body plans appearing more or less without antecedents); and finally

-Non-gradual forms or modes of transition, where you see abrupt discontinuities in the fossil record between different types.

As Müller has explained in a 2003 work (“On the Origin of Organismal Form,” with Stuart Newman), although “the neo-Darwinian paradigm still represents the central explanatory framework of evolution, as represented by recent textbooks” it “has no theory of the generative.” In other words, the neo-Darwinian mechanism of mutation and natural selection lacks the creative power to generate the novel anatomical traits and forms of life that have arisen during the history of life. Yet, as Müller noted, neo-Darwinian theory continues to be presented to the public via textbooks as the canonical understanding of how new living forms arose – reflecting precisely the tension between the perceived and actual status of the theory that Meyer described in “Darwin’s Doubt.” 

Much of the conference after Müller’s talk did discuss various other proposed evolutionary mechanisms. Indeed, the prime movers in the Royal Society event, Müller, James Shapiro, Denis Noble, and Eva Jablonka – known to evolutionary biologists as the “Third Way of Evolution” crowd, neither ID theorists nor orthodox Darwinists – have proposed repairing the explanatory deficits of the modern synthesis by highlighting evolutionary mechanisms other than random mutation and natural selection. Much debate at the conference centered around the question of whether these new mechanisms could be incorporated into the basic population genetics framework of neo-Darwinism, thus making possible a new “extended” evolutionary synthesis, or whether the emphasis on new mechanisms of evolutionary change represented a radical, and theoretically incommensurable, break with established theory. This largely semantic, or classificatory, issue obscured a deeper question that few, if any, of the presentations confronted head on: the issue of the origin of genuine phenotypic novelty – the problem that Müller described in his opening talk. 

Indeed, by the end of Day 3 of the meeting, it seemed clear to many of our scientists, and others in attendance with whom they talked, that the puzzle of life’s novelties remained unsolved – if, indeed, it had been addressed at all. As a prominent German paleontologist in the crowd concluded, “All elements of the Extended Synthesis [as discussed at the conference] fail to offer adequate explanations for the crucial explanatory deficits of the Modern Synthesis (aka neo-Darwinism) that were explicitly highlighted in the first talk of the meeting by Gerd Müller.” 

[….]

Rather, these complex behaviors were taken as givens, leaving the critical question of their origins more or less untouched. While there is abundant evidence that animals can learn and transmit new behaviors to their offspring – crows in Japan, for instance, have learned how to use automobile traffic to crack open nuts – all such evidence presupposes the prior existence of specific functional capacities enabling observation, learning, and the like. The evolutionary accounts of niche construction theory therefore collide repeatedly with a brick wall marked “ORIGINAL COMPLEX FUNCTIONAL CAPACITY REQUIRED HERE” – without, or beyond which, there would simply be nothing interesting to observe.James Shapiro’s talk, clearly one of the most interesting of the conference, highlighted this difficulty in its most fundamental form. Shapiro presented fascinating evidence showing, contra neo-Darwinism, the non-random nature of many mutational processes – processes that allow organisms to respond to various environmental challenges or stresses. The evidence he presented suggests that many organisms possess a kind of pre-programmed adaptive capacity – a capacity that Shapiro has elsewhere described as operating under “algorithmic control.” Yet, neither Shapiro, nor anyone else at the conference, attempted to explain how the information inherent in such algorithmic control or pre-programmed capacity might have originated. …

So one should be aware, while almost all the info posted here are from evolutionists or journals and magazines in the evolutionary field of study, intelligent design theorists have been ringing this bell for a LONG time. The more recent line of thinking that has devestated neo-Darwinian thinking the most started in 1986 with Michael Denton’s Evolution: A Theory In Crisis. Then came Phillip Johnson’s 1990 book, Darwin on Trial. Then came Darwin’s Black Box by Michael Behe (1996). (I would include in the mix a 1993 book by a non-theist, Richard Milton entitled Shattering the Myths of Darwinism.)

Here are some key definitions defined and built upon by Dr. Jay Richards:


Scientific Journals/Magazines


Now, here are some journal or science magazine partial comments that call into question the Darwinian theory:

  • NEW SCIENTIST, “Evolution evolves: Beyond the selfish gene — For more than 150 years it has been one of science’s most successful theories, but we need to rethink evolution for the 21st century,” Sept. 21, 2016

…Some biologists are trying to shoehorn the new knowledge into traditional evolutionary thinking. Others, myself included, believe a more radical approach may be required. We don’t deny the roles of genetic inheritance and natural selection, but think we should look at evolution in a markedly different way. It is time for the theory of evolution to evolve.

  • NATURE, “Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?” Oct 8, 2014

Does evolutionary theory need a rethink? Yes, urgently

Without an extended evolutionary framework, the theory neglects key processes, say Kevin Laland and colleagues.

Charles Darwin conceived of evolution by natural selection without knowing that genes exist. Now mainstream evolutionary theory has come to focus almost exclusively on genetic inheritance and processes that change gene frequencies.

Yet new data pouring out of adjacent fields are starting to undermine this narrow stance. An alternative vision of evolution is beginning to crystallize, in which the processes by which organisms grow and develop are recognized as causes of evolution.

Some of us first met to discuss these advances six years ago. In the time since, as members of an interdisciplinary team, we have worked intensively to develop a broader framework, termed the extended evolutionary synthesis (EES), and to flesh out its structure, assumptions and predictions. In essence, this synthesis maintains that important drivers of evolution, ones that cannot be reduced to genes, must be woven into the very fabric of evolutionary theory.

We believe that the EES will shed new light on how evolution works. We hold that organisms are constructed in development, not simply ‘programmed’ to develop by genes. Living things do not evolve to fit into pre-existing environments, but co-construct and coevolve with their environments, in the process changing the structure of ecosystems.

The number of biologists calling for change in how evolution is conceptualized is growing rapidly. Strong support comes from allied disciplines, particularly developmental biology, but also genomics, epigenetics, ecology and social science. We contend that evolutionary biology needs revision if it is to benefit fully from these other disciplines. The data supporting our position gets stronger every day….

  • NEW SCIENTIST, “The chaos theory of evolution,” Oct 13, 2010

…Palaeoecologists like me are now bringing a new perspective to the problem. If macroevolution really is an extrapolation of natural selection and adaptation, we would expect to see environmental change driving evolutionary change. Major climatic events such as ice ages ought to leave their imprint on life as species adapt to the new conditions. Is that what actually happens?

[….]

“The link between environmental change and evolutionary change is weak – not what Darwinists might have predicted”

[….]

This view of life leads to certain consequences. Macroevolution is not the simple accumulation of microevolutionary changes but has its own processes and patterns. There can be no “laws” of evolution….

  • JOURNAL OF EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY, “Epigenetics: Scope And Mechanisms | Evolution beyond neo-Darwinism: a new conceptual framework,”  2015 (218: 7-13); doi: 10.1242/jeb.106310.

Experimental results in epigenetics and related fields of biological research show that the Modern Synthesis (neo-Darwinist) theory of evolution requires either extension or replacement. This article examines the conceptual framework of neo-Darwinism, including the concepts of ‘gene’, ‘selfish’, ‘code’, ‘program’, ‘blueprint’, ‘book of life’, ‘replicator’ and ‘vehicle’. This form of representation is a barrier to extending or replacing existing theory as it confuses conceptual and empirical matters. These need to be clearly distinguished. In the case of the central concept of ‘gene’, the definition has moved all the way from describing a necessary cause (defined in terms of the inheritable phenotype itself) to an empirically testable hypothesis (in terms of causation by DNA sequences). Neo-Darwinism also privileges ‘genes’ in causation, whereas in multi-way networks of interactions there can be no privileged cause. An alternative conceptual framework is proposed that avoids these problems, and which is more favourable to an integrated systems view of evolution.

Denis Noble developed the first mathematical model of cardiac cells in 1960 using his discovery, with his supervisor Otto Hutter, of two of the main cardiac potassium ion channels. These discoveries were published in Nature (1960) and The Journal of Physiology (1962). The work was later developed with Dick Tsien, Dario DiFrancesco, Don Hilgemann and others to become the canonical models on which more than 100 cardiac cell models are based today. All are available on the CellML website

He was elected President of the International Union of Physiological Sciences (IUPS) at its Congress in Kyoto in 2009, and the opening speech is available as a pdf on this page. He was then elected for a second term at the 2013 Congress in Birmingham, UK. He also delivered the opening plenary lecture at the Congress (see Music of Life link) which is also published as an article in Experimental Physiology (2013). 

He is the author of the first popular book on Systems Biology, The Music of Lifeand his most recent lectures concern the implications for evolutionary biology. To follow the debate on this see the FAQ (Answers) pages on the Music of Life website. 

Denis Noble has published more than 500 papers and 11 books. A new book is in preparation. (SOURCE)

The Below presentation notes at the 40:40 mark he asks:

  • do we know what the precise mechanisms for speciation are?

Then he said:

  • I think the honest answer is that we don’t know yet.

And from Tome Bethal’s book (via UNCOMMON DISSENT):

  • “The science of neo-Darwinism was poor all along, and supported by very few facts. I have become ever more convinced that, although Darwinism has been promoted as science, its unstated role has been to prop up a philosophy—the philosophy of materialism—and atheism along with it.” (Page 20)
  • “The scientific evidence for evolution is not only weaker than is generally supposed, but as new discoveries have been made since 1959, the reasons for accepting the theory have diminished rather than increased.” (Page 45)
  • “Darwinian evolution can be seen as a way of looking at the history of life through the distorting lens of Progress. Given enough time, society in general, including human beings, would be transformed into something superior and perhaps unrecognizably different.” (Page 248)
  • “Lewontin’s worldview encouraged him to take a critical look at natural selection, which Darwinians have almost always been reluctant to do. Today, in fact, some of those who might well agree with Lewontin about natural selection are likely to remain silent lest their unorthodoxy should attract reprisals within the academy. Lewontin had no such fears, and he made an impression on me and many others for that reason.” (Page 69)
  • “Darwin might well have been dismayed if the meager evidence for natural selection, assembled over many years, had been presented to him 150 years after The Origin was published. ‘A change in the ratio of preexisting varieties? That is all you have been able to come up with?’ he might reasonably have asked. It is worth bearing in mind how feeble this evidence is, any time someone tells you that Darwinism is a fact.” (Page 79)

  • “Natural selection functions in the realm of philosophy, not science.” (Page 81)
  • “Evolutionists, of course, believe that they are appealing to science, in contrast to the religionists’ reliance on faith. But the truth is that when they utter their two-word incantation, ‘natural selection,’ they are not being remotely scientific. Nor are they expected to provide any details.” (Page 123)