This is an old debate I was involved in at Infoceptor Forums (a defunct site for early gamers via: StarCraft / Warcraft / Diablo — in the Serious Discussions/Religion part of the forum. Similar to SPACE BATTLES)… the reason I do not do this format of debating any longer is because there would be too many people coming in to comment and challenge me… and not enough “Me’s” to respond back. Keep in mind that many here are not Christians, so some foul language is in the mix.
Enjoy… but I warn you… it is long! The debate happened between 05-27-2003 & 06-05-2003 and their are many commentators… it is raw.
[I will add some commentary in these brackets]
METHSNAX SAID:
I am an athiest, but I am always open to learning about new religions and such, so I was wondering if those who have a religion would please explain their religion so that we could better understand that of which we do not partake in.
HERESY RESPONDS:
I am also an atheist… but I have some suggested reading for you.
Will to Power – Nietzsche
Koran (well… not all of it…)
Inferno – Dante
Genesis
PREATOR ANTRAX RESPONDS:
I’m sort of an Agnostic. Although I tend to think God does exist. But as a man of science, I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.
But that’s not where it stops, I basically believe that God exists and that I must stand opposed to him. I do what I can to ridicule his religions and find fallacies and contradictions in his teachings. In fact, I have a score board, currently 3:2 (I’m winning), of successful direct stands against one another. It makes for an interesting life. Oh, and I’m not a Satanist, if he was so prevalent then I’d oppose that bastard too.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
[QUOTING PREATOR ANTRAX] “But as a man of science I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.”
Nor is he prepared to go out and spend a little cash to see if science does indeed point to a Divine Intelligence behind it all.
For any wishing to get the best answers to tough questions, I will take a quote from my “Replying to Human / Ape Proof of Evolution?” strain, for those interested in being unbiased (scientific).
Quote:
I have a few suggestions for your viewing and reading pleasure:
- The first is by an atheist, Richard Milton. He wrote a book called Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, and that’s exactly what it does. The author is not opposed to evolution, per se, but he is opposed to how it is currently taught, being that it is more pseudo-science than actual science. Plus, he is not a creationist trying to bury the proverbial axe.
Now, keep in mind that these books I am mentioning are for the introductory reader on this subject… however, if you are a college student taking courses in a particular scientific field, let me know and I will offer a more technical manual.
- The next book I recommend is by Ralph Muncaster, and is called, Dismantling Evolution: Building the Case for Intelligent Design. He is a Christian, but the book is written for the irreligious, for the most part.
These two books, one by an atheist, the other by a Christian-theist, would be great – positive – places to start from. I also realize that documentaries of the quality close to, say, The Learning Channel, or the Discovery Channel, would help bring what these books mention to a three-dimensional life. The two DVD’s I will offer for your investigation into this matter are:
- The first is a short (30 min) film, but is packed with a large punch. It is called, From a Frog to a Prince, and is well worth the money. The other DVD documentary is called, Unlocking the Mystery of Life: The Scientific Case for Intelligent Design. Both are well done and deserve an honest hearing in front of your viewing pleasure.
These four suggestions will allow you to, over the course of, say a year, if you took your time, to get some of the positive input by doctorate holding scientists and professors in their special fields of science on this matter. This is not me changing someone’s mind, but allowing said person to make up his or her own mind in light of all the evidence. This is all I wish for people.
PREATOR ANTRAX RESPONDS TO ME:
[QUOTING PAPA GIORGIO] “But as a man of science I am not prepared to claim for certain until there is reasoning to do it.” Nor is he prepared to go out and spend a little cash to see if science does indeed point to a Divine Intelligence behind it all.
Oh so you know what I spend my money on, do you? And I know for a fact that there is no reputable scientific theory that proves the existence of a “Divine Intelligence”, there are certainly philosophers that have thought to have proved it, such as Berkeley but they have been met with equally strong opposition. Everytime someone thinks they’ve got proof, someone think about it and provides a reason to reject this proof. And as such I am not going to say for sure that either side is correct. I allow for the existence of God, I think I would be disappointed if he didn’t exist. God is quite and adversary to have. But I’m sorry Papa Giorgio, you don’t get to claim that science has conclusively proved God exists, I know it hasn’t. Anyway it would destroy the religion if it had, because religion is meant to be a question of faith…if you prove it you remove the concept of faith and in effect destroy the religion. Prove that God exists and then believing in him means nothing.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
[QUOTING PREATOR ANTRAX] “And I know for a fact that there is no reputable scientific theory that proves the existence of a “Divine Intelligence”
Have you viewed and read the above books/DVD’s? How about reading Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, by Dr. Michael Behe? Or The Natural Limits to Biological Change? How about the two seminal works, The Creation Hypothesis: Scientific Evidence for an Intelligent Designer, and Mere Creation: Science, Faith & Intelligent Design.
Please tell me, Antrax, which creation or intelligent design books or articles HAVE you read? I would love to know — so I wouldn’t have to go around guessing where you spend your money. I would like to know, since you so forcefully claim there is no scientific evidence for design. What made you come to that conclusion? Bias? Or actually looking at the best available evidence?
- Do you say, “God doesn’t exist, therefore…“
- Or do you say, “I have looked at the best evidence available to me now, and I do not see…“
[….]
Please, again, let me know what books, articles, or media you have taken the time to thoroughly read and meditate on to come to your brazen conclusions that 90% of the world’s population throughout history hasn’t.
CRAZY MOFO JOINS IN:
It’s not that we haven’t looked for the evidence that intelligent design actually took place, it’s that there isn’t any. Seriously I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design. It’s hog wash I tell you :)
And I noticed you referred to “god” as a he. Why does everyone do this? If something created humans and everything why would it be logical to assume he is a human male?
Anyways Papa Giorgio can you please just tell me a few of the best points of why intelligent design is feasible?
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
[QUOTING MOFO] “I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design.”
This is the point MoFo, when people say, “well, you don’t know what I have read or studied… but I know there is no evidence in this or that,” when pressed about what they have read, silence usually follows. It did with you MoFo [a previous debate], and it did with Antrax. I could sit here and argue your ignorance to the issue of Intelligent Design theory, but I would be hitting up against a brick wall. Because you refuse to even look, let me repeat you again
[QUOTING MOFO] “I haven’t ever read or heard anything feasible that supports intelligent design.”
The point is you haven’t even looked yet, you just assume it not to be so. I don’t reject Mormonism, or Jehovah Witness’, or Islam because I know them to be false based on already assuming Christianity to be true. I have gone out and put the same test I put to the Christian faith. The same goes for science. I go out and put a test to what science currently knows, and what we can see in nature.
I don’t know if you realized yet (I’m sure you do), MoFo, but I quoted you at the beginning of the “Human Evolution” [another debate] post, and I must say (and I do not say this in meanness, or a prideful manner), you ended up looking silly. Why? Because you state something so emphatically, and then cannot back up what you are saying. And then after reading it all, you just shrug it off and say, “Well! I still believe in it!”
I haven’t heard such a haughty tone from Dr. Pangloss [FYI, that is a fictional character in Voltaire’s book Candide], or the others who ask constructive questions? Or maybe some have seen the weakness in what they use to believe were good arguments (basing their beliefs on them), and are now – maybe for the first time in their life (and rightly so) – going to go out and “dig a little deeper.” They, however, haven’t dug quite the deep hole you and Antrax seem to dig.
Again, I just think you should consider — I know, it sounds out-of-this-world — just maybe… possibly, going out of your way and check out just one of the resources I mentioned. Start with the atheist’s book about evolution I recommended.
Don’t say there isn’t, and then go look with that attitude. Say, there’s a possibility (just a shred of one, but a shred nonetheless), but I should look into it to see, for myself.
Are you a
- “God doesn’t exist [presupposed], therefore…“
Or,
- “I have looked at the best evidence available to me now [open-minded], so I haven’t seen yet…“
One is scientific in nature, the other isn’t.
P.S., I will get to a few examples later, I want to let the other posts [debates] die down first.
GIADDON ALSO JOINS:
One reason I don’t believe in god is the lack of proof of his existence. I used to be a Christian, but left in disgust when I saw that there was just… Nothing there. A bunch of hypocritical and contradictory pish-tosh that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
For example, on Origins.org [I recommended this article to MethSnax, but it is a dead site now] I found a fascinating article on how the burden of proof lies on the atheists. From the beginning, this is illogical. It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as god. The whole article seems to say:
“We’re tired of trying to prove that god exists: your turn.”
Furthermore, back in ye olde tymes, God was quite an active fellow. Starting floods, talking to people, sending plagues, burning bushes. Yet all of a sudden he went quiet. Why did he suddenly stop doing things? Did he get bored and wander away? Did he go on a snack run? What? Or maybe he can’t contact us and we can’t contact him for a very simple reason:
He doesn’t exist.
METHSNAX:
Wow, thank you very much. I have read much of the material suggested, except for the books, although I believe they will contain a great deal that I should know to. I have read Genesis, and part of the Koran. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should form my own religion. It would be a varied form of atheism that merely questions God existence in a more scientific manner, not completely deny it. This way, people can not believe in God, but still maintain an understanding of other religions. I hope that wasn’t a stupid idea. The only true problem I see with religion is that if you total the deaths caused in the name of God/god(s) compared to all other deaths in the world, you will see that most are in the name of God/god(s) or religions that promote non violence.
CRAZY MOFO:
Right you are, MethSnax. The terrorists behind the nightmares of 9/11 believed they are going to a type of “heaven” for their brave acts.
Bush thinks he is going to a type of “heaven” for protecting america, the “good side”, and destroying “evil” (terrorists and terrorist harboring countries).
It’s the same damn idea on both sides, however each side thinks they are the “good side”! Good going religion :(
KAIGUN NOW JOINS:
So lemme get this straight, because religion is used as an excuse for killing someone, it is the religion’s fault?
Let me pose a question to you. A criminal goes on a shooting spree and attributes his mass murder to video game violence. Do you therefore draw the conclusion that it is video games that are responsible for these murders?
PREATOR ANTRAX:
I actually do read alot of books and articles pertaining to scientific and philosophical evaluations of religion and religious claims. And I have regular conversation with the father of my best friend… who has spent the last 3-4 years of his life evaluating religion, and has spent huge amounts of money on books. So far I have not found anything that works as a sound confirmation of the existence of a divine intelligence. Stop being so pig-headed by assuming because you’ve found something that you see as evidence, that everyone will take it as evidence. Some people take more to convince.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
Wasn’t it you, GIADDON, who said there was no logical proof for His existence? Then I posted a response:
Based on Sufficient Reason
(See an excellent article at The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
P1) A contingent being exists.
- This contingent being is caused either (1) by itself, or (2) by another.
- If it were caused by itself, it would have to precede itself in existence, which is impossible.
P2) Therefore, this contingent being (2) is caused by another, i.e., depends on something else for its existence.
P3) That which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (3) another contingent being, or (4) a non-contingent being (necessary) being.
- If 3, then this contingent cause must itself be caused by another, and so onto infinity.
P4) Therefore, that which causes (provides the sufficient reason for) the existence of any contingent being must be either (5) an infinite series of contingent beings, or (4) a necessary being.
P5) An infinite series of contingent beings (5) is incapable of yielding a sufficient reason for the existence of any being.
P6) Therefore, a necessary being (4) exists!
Based on the Principle of Existential Causality
- Some limited, changing being[s] exist.
- The present existence of every limited, changing being is caused by another.
- There cannot be an infinite regress of causes of being.
- Therefore, there is a first Cause of the present existence of these beings.
- This first Cause must be infinite, necessary, eternal, simple, unchangeable and one.
- This first uncaused Cause is identical with the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition
A mix of both
- Something exists (e.g., I do);
- I am a contingent being;
- Nothing cannot cause something;
- Only a Necessary Being can cause a contingent being;
- Therefore, I am caused to exist by a Necessary Being;
- But I am personal, rational, and moral kind of being (since I engage in these kinds of activities);
- Therefore this Necessary Being must be a personal, rational, and moral kind of being, since I am similar to him by the Principle of Analogy;
- But a Necessary Being cannot be contingent (i.e., not necessary) in its being which would be a contradiction;
- Therefore, this Necessary Being is personal, rational, and moral in a necessary way, not in a contingent way;
- This Necessary Being is also eternal, uncaused, unchanging, unlimited, and one, since a Necessary Being cannot come to be, be caused by another, undergo change, be limited by any possibility of what it could be (a Necessary Being has no possibility to be other than it is), or to be more than one Being (since there cannot be two infinite beings);
- Therefore, one necessary, eternal, uncaused, unlimited (=infinite), rational, personal, and moral being exists;
- Such a Being is appropriately called “God” in the theistic sense, because he possesses all the essential characteristics of a theistic God;
- Therefore, the theistic God exists.
Giaddon, you said:
“It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as God”
Amorphous means:
- lacking definite form; having no specific shape; formless: the amorphous clouds.
- of no particular kind or character; indeterminate; having no pattern or structure; unorganized: an amorphous style; an amorphous personality.
Now, I want either Giaddon to answer this, or anyone else fo that matter… what did Giaddon just do to contradict her/him self??
I will give a hint below with a small portion of a paper I have already posted… and you would think these types of mistakes would be stopped once shown – going to show how much bad-thinking is incorporated into our minds when not honed. My favorite quote is,
- “Raising one’s self-consciousness [awareness] about worldviews is an essential part of intellectual maturity” (From the book, World-Views In Conflict: Choosing Christianity In a World of Ideas, by Ronald Nash).
Quote:
What about agnosticism, does the belief that one cannot ultimately know anything about God hold up to rational and logical thought? *Before going any further, I should define the two different types of agnostics:
- Agnosticism: The state of not-knowing whether there is a God or not. *The humble [soft] agnostic says that he doesn’t know whether there is a God. *The less humble [hard] agnostic says that you don’t either… [and] thinks that we can’t ever really know (Tom Morris, Philosophy for Dummies. Chicago, Illinois: IDG Books Worldwide (1999), p. 238.)
I am mainly dealing here with the “hard” agnostic. *The “soft” agnostic is open to receiving information about God from others and then tests these claims by the rules and science of logic, history, and experience. *An example that bears striking similarities to the “hard” agnostic is that of a conversation between a teacher and her student:
Teacher: “Welcome, students. This is the first day of class, and so I want to lay down some ground rules. First, since no one person has the truth, you should be open-minded to the opinions of your fellow students. Second… Elizabeth, do you have a question?”
Elizabeth: “Yes I do. If nobody has the truth, isn’t that a good reason for me not to listen to my fellow students? After all, if nobody has the truth, why should I waste my time listening to other people and their opinions? What’s the point? Only if somebody has the truth does it make sense to be open-minded. Don’t you agree?”
Teacher: “No, I don’t. Are you claiming to know the truth? Isn’t that a bit arrogant and dogmatic?”
Elizabeth: “Not at all. Rather I think it’s dogmatic, as well as arrogant, to assert that no single person on earth knows the truth. After all, have you met every single person in the world and quizzed them exhaustively? If not, how can you make such a claim? Also, I believe it is actually the opposite of arrogance to say that I will alter my opinions to fit the truth whenever and wherever I find it. And if I happen to think that I have good reason to believe I do know truth and would like to share it with you, why wouldn’t you listen to me? Why would you automatically discredit my opinion before it is even uttered? I thought we were supposed to listen to everyone’s opinion.”
Teacher: “This should prove to be an interesting semester.”
Another Student: “(blurts out) Ain’t that the truth.” (Students laugh)
(Francis J. Beckwith & Gregory Koukl, Relativism: Feet Planted Firmly In Mid-Air. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books (1998), p. 74.)
The hard agnostic dismisses the argument even before hearing it. *This type of agnosticism is refuted by the associate professor of philosophy and government at the University of Texas at Austin, J. Budziszewski (Ph.D., Yale University):
- “To say that we cannot know anything about God is to say something about God; it is to say that if there is a God, he is unknowable. *But in that case, he is not entirely unknowable, for the agnostic certainly thinks that we can know one thing about him: *That nothing else can be known about him. *Unfortunately, the position that we can know exactly one thing about God – his unknowability in all respects except this – is equally unsupportable, for why should this one thing be an exception? How could we know that any possible God would be of such a nature that nothing else could be known about him? *On what basis could we rule out his knowability in all other respects but this one? The very attempt to justify the claim confutes it, for the agnostic would have to know a great many things about God in order to know he that couldn’t know anything else about him” (Norman Geisler & Paul Hoffman, editors, Why I Am a Christian: Leading Thinkers Explain Why They Believe. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books (2001), p. 54.)
Agnostics basically claim that nothing can be known about reality (or, Reality). *Norman Geisler points out that “in its ultimate form [agnosticism] claims that all knowledge about reality (i.e., truth) is impossible. *But this itself is offered as a truth about reality” (Josh McDowell, The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict. Nashville: Thomas Nelson (1999), p. 637).
He did contact us, and proved His existence.
KAIGUN, great point, and you clearly show a use of a part of the brain that others seem to not, common sense! Not only do MethSnax and MoFo “blame the video game,” but they would then say the video game does not exist. I know I just simplified it too much, but the premise remains.
METHSNAX, I would entreat you to read an article found at: “The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity?“ Please, read the whole article.
[A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be ‘most’ really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 7,000 years of recorded human warfare. COMPARED TO just 100-years where atheistic/dialectical materialistic government were founded and killed more people than all of religion before the 20th century — if you exclude Islam. So atheism in 100-years killed more people than all of the history of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Jainism, Taoism, etc., combined. So, it seems, you would WANT people to be religious to curtail out nature. I also expanded on this a tad HERE]
Again ANTRAX: What have you read? Give me the articles, names of the books, etc. I want to know… please inform me, as, I may have read it as well. if putting you on the spot is pigheaded, then so be it.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]
MOFO, you are very apt at showing your youthful “ire.” My hope is you actually make it from the abyss of necessitous thought patterns and join the world of reflective thinking. To pigeonhole the geopolitical landscape into such a neanderthalish comparison of, “good religion vs. bad religion,” is just too much for me to bear. Again, I entreat you to stop focusing on your very-apparent psychological fear of anything Christian – because you apparently cannot even comment on a simple political choice made by a United States president without throwing religion in the mix.
Are you so tainted about the Christian faith (or, religion in general) that you would simply brush it aside by making such child-like comparisons of a complex issue?
I wish to leave the world of religio-political thought (or so inferred by you) for a moment and share an incite with you that I hope (and can only pray), hits home.
Quote:
Instead of thinking of Christianity as a collection of theological bits and pieces to be believed or debated, we should approach our faith as a conceptual system, as a total world-and-life view. Once people understand that both Christianity and its adversaries in the world of ideas are worldviews, they will be in a better position to judge the relative merits of the total Christian system. William Abraham has written:
“Religious belief should be assessed as a rounded whole rather than taken in stark isolation, Christianity, for example, like other world faiths, is a complex, large-scale system of belief which must be seen as a whole before it is assessed. To break it up into disconnected parts is to mutilate and distort its true character. We can, of course, distinguish certain elements in the Christian faith, but we must still stand back and see it as a complex interaction of these elements. We need to see it as a metaphysical system, as a worldview, that is total in its scope and range” (An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion, p. 104).
The case for or against Christian theism should be made and evaluated in terms of total systems. Christianity is not simply a religion that tells human beings how they may be forgiven, however important this information is. Christianity is also a total world-and-life view. Our faith has important things to say about the whole of human life. Once Christians understand in a systematic way how the options to Christianity are also worldviews, they will be in a better position to justify their choice of Christianity rationally. The reason many people reject our faith is not due to their problems with one or two isolated issues; it is the result of their anti-Christian conceptual scheme, which leads them to reject information and arguments that for believers provide support for the Christian worldview.
Ronald H. Nash, Worldviews in Conflict: Choosing Christianity in a World of Ideas (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1992)
- “The problem with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult, and left untried” — G. K. Chesterton (Quote taken from, A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism)
A book that helps to compare three major worldviews is entitled Understanding the Times: The Religious Worldviews of Our Day and the Search for Truth, by David A. Noebel. It compares Secular Humanism, Marxism/Leninism, and Christianity in the realm of:
1) Theology
2) Philosophy
3) Ethics
4) Biology
5) Psychology
6) Sociology
7) Law
8) Politics
9) Economics
10) History
Until you look at Christianity in a way that includes the whole sum, you are merely making a mockery of my faith, and yourself, when saying such puerile statement about George W’s belief.
SIRZAP:
[SIR ZIP QUOTES GIADDON]
Furthermore, back in ye olde tymes, God was quite an active fellow. Starting floods, talking to people, sending plagues, burning bushes. Yet all of a sudden he went quiet. Why did he suddenly stop doing things? Did he get bored and wander away? Did he go on a snack run? What? Or maybe he can’t contact us and we can’t contact him for a very simple reason:
He doesn’t exist.
Jesus… founded a church… with the guidance of the… Holy Spirit…
GOD did actively intervened in history…
but of course… Jesus told HE will come again… but there will be turbulent times ahead…
Knowledge will increase… and People will travel to and fro… as prophesied by Daniel…
[SIR ZIP QUOTES PREATOR ANTRAX]
I actually do read a lot of books and articles pertaining to scientific and philosophical evaluations of religion and religious claims. And I have regular conversation with the father of my best friend…who has spent the last 3-4 years of his life evaluating religion, and has spent huge amounts of money on books. So far I have not found anything that works as a sound confirmation of the existence of a divine intelligence. Stop being so pig-headed by assuming because you’ve found something that you see as evidence, that everyone will take it as evidence. Some people take more to convince. Me too… I spent books on other people’s religion and beliefs…. Divine Intelligence…. well let me put it this way… a Story… a true story and was published in Reader’s Digests One time, an atheist visited his friend, a Christian, both are Astronomers… The atheist was fascinated with the Solar system Model and asked who made it…. the Christian answered “nobody!!!” jokingly with a smile, but the atheist persisted, knowing, his Christian friend had to be joking. The Atheist continued, praising and really admiring the model…. then the Christian said, if somebody made the model, how could the real thing not exist??? end of story…. I looked for the original story as even with my minor edits to smooth out SIR ZIPS telling of it, I did find it in John MacArthur’s book, “The Battle for the Beginning: The Bible on Creation and the Fall of Adam” (p.84). I am assuming the Reader’s Digest retelling of it included the idea tat one could not make a model of something if that “something” didn’t exist. [SIR ZIP QUOTES METHSNAX] Wow, thank you very much. I have read much of the material suggested, except for the books, although I believe they will contain a great deal that I should know to. I have read Genisis, and part of the Koran. I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I should form my own religion. It would be a varied form of atheism that mearly questions God existance in a more scientific manner, not completely deny it. This way, people can not believe in God, but still maintain an understanding of other religions. I hope that wasn’t a stupid idea. The only true problem I see with religion is that if you total the deaths caused in the name of God/god(s) compared to all other deaths in the world, you will see that most are in the name of God/god(s) or religions that promote non violence. Science has limitations…. it depends on senses… but GOD transcends beyond our senses… You can not just gain religion by intellectual means… Religion is a way of life….
CRAZY MOFO:
First off I didn’t’ blame the video game, of course the person that commits the act is always to blame, but religion helps in fogging their choices.
Secondly I just wanna know why/how people can believe there is a “supernatural” being behind everything we see and do when there is:
Zero evidence,
Zero reason, and finally,
Zero logic for something like this to exist
If a being created the universe who created that being? It is much more logical to assume that the universe is a sea of energy and matter forming stars and planets and sometimes planets that can suit life (earth).
Religion has been wrong time and time again, after all, the churches thought the earth was flat and it was at the center of the universe. We can thank courageous astronomers for discovering the TRUTH and risking torture and ridicule.
HERESY:
Quote:
Zero evidence,
Zero reason, and finally,
Zero logic for something like this to exist
There is also ZERO evidence that there is not a creator.
Seriously… how can so many atheists be blindly one sided?
I’m an atheist, but I still see the argument.
Excuse me while I go vomit.
EL_CHUPACABRA STEPS IN THE RING:
Heretic ur logic is extremely flawed, if there is no divine being how could there be evidence that there is no divine being? Has anyone ever heard of the Schrödinger Cat experiment?
Basically if you put a live cat in a lead box and then you throw in a poisoned cat treat and then you seal the box, you have no way of knowing whether the cat is alive or dead therefore the cat exists in two states alive and dead.
We cannot know whether or not God exists so therefore God both exists and doesn’t exist. Furthermore because the cat is sealed in a box it makes no difference to us whether the cat is alive or dead…
oh and one other thing for those of you who say that there cannot be an infinite cause for the creation of the universe you are quite wrong. There is a relatively new theory concerning time travel and the creation of the universe though I cannot recall the exact details, I think the book I read it in was called Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe. Something about at some point in time the universe creates itself in the past and ur left with the eternal question of which came first the chicken or the egg… I dunno I can’t remember ill try and dig up the book and get back to you
HERESY:
Quote:
- if there is no divine being how could there be evidence that there is no divine being?
um great argument….
I’ll just say this.
If there is a divine being, how could there be evidence that there is a divine being?
On both sides, there is a fair amount of theory and such, and although the creation theory has been losing some ground, is it really all that less relevant?
Some may say yes, while many say no. But because there is not sufficient evidence on either side, I choose to accept both as legitimate, although I lean towards atheism.
Is my logic flawed? Hardly. After all, there is no PROOF that there is no god – and that is all I say.
The cat cannot exist in two states. Regardless of what you know… it is in only one. Its like saying. “You don’t know if I am male or female.” I only exist in one state… regardless of how much you know.
Is my logic flawed? No. Are most atheists horribly one sided? Yes. Is yours? Not looking promising.
EL_CHUPACABRA:
To you the cat does exist in two states. The cat is encased in solid lead you can’t see it, it can’t see you. How can you possibly know if the cat is alive or dead? Its all about perspective. And again how can there be proof that something doesn’t exist if it doesn’t exist? I want a 10 legged dog, try and prove to me it doesn’t exist.
HERESY:
No. It doesn’t. The cat exists in one state…. you simply cannot know which. This DOES NOT mean that it exists in two.
Of course, the fact that a dog will have ten legs is scientifically disproven. Or at least highly unlikely. it could happen… but it probably wont.
God has not been disproven.
Try again…
EL_CHUPACABRA:
OK I am not attempting to disprove God I’m attempting to prove that it’s impossible to prove or disprove God and yes, the cat does exist in two states, if you don’t believe so then tell me if the cat is alive or dead.
Oh, and please show me scientific evidence that disproves the existence of a 10-legged dog.
HERESY:
It’s called DNA…. the genetic structure of a dog does not allow for the additional legs to be grown without mutation. Although additional legs have been formed before, iirc.
And basically, what I’m saying is that your 2 existences thing is bullshit. If you know what the existence is or not, there is still only ONE true way that it is. KNOWING has nothing to do with it. Your idea is RETARDED. There. I said it.
Anyway… I’m basically just humoring you now… In my mind I’ve decided that I’ve pretty much pwned you… so I’m gonna go study for a math test….
EL_CHUPACABRA:
I would let you win this one because I am truly just as tired of arguing this point as you are, but I just don’t have it in me to bow to someone who does not even realize that the whole cat thing was not my idea in the first place. I’m in fact citing a well-known and accepted idea that was created by Schrodinger and is used in such fields as quantum mechanics. Also, unless you can show me a complete map of a dog’s genome and show me where the dog is constrained to 4 legs then you had better find some more concrete proof. Anyways study for your math test I’m sure you need to.
HERESY:
I realize that you are citing a few sources… I’m simply saying that I don’t agree with them. Anyway, I was arguing a side which I don’t really support and I have massive finals tomorrow.
CRAZY MOFO:
I like the cat example, it produces the same problem we have here. We can’t prove there is or isn’t a creator. SO we must choose the most logical choice, and that is that there isn’t one.
And don’t say but why is that the most logical choice? Because I’m not gonna repeat myself as I am forced to in almost every thread I’m sick of it, you know how I feel on this…
GIADDON:
Papa Giorgio: Obviously my “contradiction” was that I referred to God as a “he”, then called “him” amorphous. I was simply trying to use the conventional term regarding God, to avoid confusion. It’s mere semantics, and shouldn’t even be up for debate. If you prefer, I can call God “bullshit.”
And as for your “God was required to make humans” argument, my response stands: what made God? And if he just “is” why can’t the whole universe just “be?” That argument falls apart if you spend even a second of time thinking about it.
SirZap: What? I don’t understand what you are saying.
Heretic: Good attitude, and one I wish more people would share, both atheists and believers. As I said, there is no way to prove that there is no God, I just don’t believe in him, and I have presented my reasons.
El_Chupacabra: The cat occupies one stage only. Our observation is irrelevant to the truth.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
MOFO (and others), you essentially said there is
- “zero reason, and finally, zero logic for something like this to exist”
May I refer you again to my already post reasonably logical argument above:
MOFO, you said:
- “If a being created the universe who created that being?”
Quote:
The most prominent objection that is ever raised against a form of cosmological argument like this consists in asking, “Then what is the explanation for God’s existence?” This is most effective when done with a smugness of tone and deliberate emphasis of the word “God.”
The objection usually means to imply here that the cosmological argument will generate an infinite regress of explanations. To explain the existence of God, by the reasoning just used, it would seem that we need to postulate the existence of a Super-God. But then that being’s existence would need explaining by the activities of a Super-Duper-God, and so on, ad infinitum and absurdum (to infinity and absurdity).
This objection seems to just assume that God’s existence does not have a scientific or personal explanation, then it is unintelligible. But it should be by now what a defender of the argument will say to this.
The existence of God is intelligible not because it was caused by anything or anyone, but because it flows from his essence. This was the claim that the ontological argument made about God. God cannot fail to exist. God exists necessarily. It is God’s essential nature to exist. And in this regard, God is very different from anything in the universe. God’s existence logically follows from God’s essence. No other explanation for God is either necessary or possible. Thus, we don’t have to worry about postulating (theoretically supposing the existence of) other deities in an infinite regress (or infinite mess) of explanatory postulations.
God, as the ontological argument told us, is fundamentally different from the universe. The very concept of God, it contends, precludes God’s not existing. So we cannot even imagine God’s not existing and know with full detail what we are imagining, without contradiction. But we can with the universe. It does not seem to be at all the sort of thing whose essence is to exist. Its concept does not logically imply its reality in all sets of possible circumstances. And that is different from the concept of God as a greatest possible being.
Notice that the conclusion of this version of the cosmological argument is not “Therefore there is a God.” it is just that, if we are rational, we should believe that there is a God. But this in itself is a surprise to many people who associate religious belief not with rationality but instead with the irrational side of life. This argument contends not just that it is rational to believe, but that it is irrational not to believe.
Excerpted from Philosophy for Dummies, by Tom Morris, p.253.
MOFO, you said:
- “Religion has been wrong time and time again, after all the churches thought the earth was flat and it was at the center of the universe.”
All not true Mofo?! In fact, the flat-earth theory is a myth, but you wouldn’t want to actually investigate that, because that would require putting your bias aside and looking into the matter yourself… I mean, you have already presupposed what your saying is true, right? The answer is yes, because you have emphatically stated these things to be true, thus proving the church to be false.
Before I go about taking more of your examples and showing you – and the others here – how you are wrong yet again, I want to make an analogy. Just for a moment, lets say you are right, lets say that the church thought the earth was flat, and also believed a geocentric universe (actually they did, but there is more to this story than simply this, I will shortly explain). What does this have to do with the truth of a matter, like, say, God’s existence? If the Son of Sam killed his victims merely for the fact that 2 + 2 = 4, would that make the equation 2 + 2 = 4 wrong? No it wouldn’t, neither would the hypothetical that the church taught a flat earth. This has nothing to do with whether God exists or not. Even if there were no Christians on earth, this would not falsify the truth claims of Christianity.
Okay, back to business. A very fun read is a book by Jeffrey Russell called, Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern History. Two other books worth mentioning are: Not So!: Popular Myths About America from Columbus to Clinton, by Paul Boller; and, 6 Modern Myths About Christianity and Western Civilization, by Philip Sampson.
The Bible clearly states the earth is round (Isaiah 40:22), the Hebrew root word used in this verse literally means sphericity, with the 3-D in mind.
- Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
- Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
- Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
- Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
- Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
- Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
- Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
- Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
- Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
Etc.
As for geocentricism, the church rejected the interpretation of misused Scripture for geocentricism that the secular universities taught. The analogy would be if the church today accepted Darwinism.
Quote:
Creationists are often accused of trying to oppose science on purely theological terms. The argument usually contains a strong warning to remember the persecution of Galileo by the theologians of his own time. It continues, “History has proven that Galileo was correct and that the dogmatic religious authorities who opposed him were wrong.” With one simple illustration, scientists warn that any interference in scientific ideas by religious people is tantamount to religious persecution.
The historical account of Galileo’s struggle for acceptance is not, however, a black and white issue. In fact, it is one of the most interesting and complex historical events recorded. Galileo’s trial was not the simple conflict between science and religion so commonly pictured. It was a complex power struggle, fought upon the foundations of personal and professional pride, envy, and ambition.
The stage for this tragedy had been set a few years earlier during what is commonly referred to as the Protestant reformation. During the reformation, the Catholic Church’s authority had been called into question. Priests and laypeople had judged Rome as having forsaken true Christian beliefs. The reformation shook the Church at its very foundation of authority, causing it to lose much of its world power and influence. Eventually, at the council of Trent, the Catholic Church formed an index of literature which was forbidden to Catholics throughout the world. Included in this censor were any books that challenged traditional interpretations of the scripture.
Ironically, the traditional beliefs that Galileo opposed ultimately belonged to Aristotle, not to biblical exegesis. Pagan philosophy had become interwoven with traditional Catholic teachings during the time of Augustine. Therefore, the Church’s dogmatic retention of tradition was the major seat of controversy, not the Bible. It may also be noted that Pope Urban VIII was himself sympathetic to Galileo but was not willing to stand against the tide of controversy. In reality, the majority of persecution seemed to come from intellectual scientists whose monopoly of educational authority had been threatened. During Galileo’s time, education was primarily dominated by Jesuit and Dominican priests.
One of the most important aspects of Galileo’s “threat” to education is that he published his writings in Italian, rather than Latin, which was the official language of scholarship. Galileo was attempting to have his ideas accepted by common people, hoping that they would eventually filter into the educational institutions. Thus, Galileo was regarded as an enemy of the established scientific authorities and experienced the full weight of their influence and persecution.
In many ways, the historic controversy of creation vs. evolution has been similar to Galileo’s conflict, only with a reversal of roles. In the sixteenth century, Christian theism was the prevailing philosophy and the Catholic Church dominated the educational system. Those, like Galileo, who dedicated themselves to diligently search for truth found themselves at the unmerciful hands of the authorities whose theories they threatened. In the twentieth century, however, the philosophy of naturalism has become dominant, and science occupies the position of influence. Again, we note that the majority (regardless of whether it is right or wrong) will persecute those who dare to dispute their “traditional” theories; today the questionable theory of evolution is being challenged.
The lesson to be learned from Galileo, it appears, is not that the Church held too tightly to biblical truths; but rather that it did not hold tightly enough. It allowed Greek philosophy to influence its theology and held to tradition rather than to the teachings of the Bible. We must hold strongly to Biblical doctrine which has been achieved through sure methods of exegesis. We must never be satisfied with dogmas built upon philosophic traditions.
Ref: What is the lesson that Christians should learn from Galileo? | See also: Geocentrism: History and Background
[Atheist Daniel Dennet likened flat-earthers to creations, however, the president of the Flat Earth Society is a Virginian man named Daniel Shenton. He believes in Evolution as well as Climate Change. See CROSS EXAMINED]
Mofo, again, knowledge is good, your hasty assumptions are not.
SIRZAP:
GIADDON: Of course, you are a non-believer. If you are intelligent enough, or at least knowledgeable about what I said, then you will understand what I’m saying. Nothing personal, just my opinion about you.
GOD is GOD, believe it or not. simple as that.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
GIADDON, you said:
- “It is impossible to prove that something does not exist, especially when it is as amorphous as God”
Amorphous means:
- lacking definite form; having no specific shape; formless: the amorphous clouds.
- of no particular kind or character; indeterminate; having no pattern or structure; unorganized: an amorphous style; an amorphous personality.
Don’t you see?
“To say that we cannot know anything about God is to say something about God; it is to say that if there is a God, he is unknowable. But in that case, he is not entirely unknowable, for the agnostic certainly thinks that we can know one thing about him: That nothing else can be known about him. Unfortunately, the position that we can know exactly one thing about God – his unknowability in all respects except this – is equally unsupportable, for why should this one thing be an exception? How could we know that any possible God would be of such a nature that nothing else could be known about him? On what basis could we rule out his knowability in all other respects but this one? The very attempt to justify the claim confutes it, for the agnostic would have to know a great many things about God in order to know he that couldn’t know anything else about him”
Norman Geisler & Paul Hoffman, editors, Why I Am a Christian: Leading Thinkers Explain Why They Believe (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2001), p. 54.
I’m surprised I had to point that out again.
EL_CHUPACABRA:
GIADDON, I will pose to you the same question that I did to Heretic: Is the cat alive or dead? And please note that the box is sealed and there is no way to see in or hear anything or have any sort of interaction with the box. There is also enough oxygen to last for several days. So after say 30 mins is the cat alive or dead?
CRAZY MOFO:
PAPA GIORGIO, the reason you and I cannot communicate is because you already accept that there is a god where I do not.
It just does not make any sense to me. Humans are animals, no other animal on the earth assembles and contemplates this like we do. God is just a term made up by humans. And if there is some sort of creator, wtf would it be? Certainly it would not be a human form right if you say it created humans.
I will tell you what god is, it is energy. Energy and matter in the universe. You go on and on talking about god this god that. Can you define god? Why would a being just create all this **** we have in the universe.
I know my method of arguing is weaker than yours, but that is because I’m just getting frustrated. You keep attacking my intelligence, when you are the high school dropout. I’m currently in college and I talk with my professors regularly about astronomy and philosophy. I also attend free night classes on astronomical events and up comings. Such as the alignment of Mars, which is coming up soon. But anyways I’m getting off track, so I’ll let you respond to what I presented you with.
ANDWARF CHIMES IN:
[ANDWARF QUOTES EL_CHUPACABRA] Giaddon I will pose to you the same question that I did to Heretic: Is the cat alive or dead? And please note that the box is sealed and there is no way to see in or hear anything or have any sort of interaction with the box. There is also enough oxygen to last for several days. So after say 30 mins is the cat alive or dead?
The act of not knowing does not affect the state of the cat!
I don’t know how many people there are in China, but that does not affect the amount that are actually there!
PREATOR ANTRAX:
[PREATOR ANTRAX QUOTES EL_CHUPACABRA] oh and one other thing for those of you who say that there cannot be an infinite cause for the creation of the universe you are quite wrong. There is a relatively new theory concerning time travel and the creation of the universe though i cannot recall the exact details, i think the book i read it in was called Time Travel in Einstein’s Universe. Something about at some point in time the universe creates itself in the past and ur left with the eternal question of which came first the chicken or the egg…i dunno i can’t remember ill try and dig up the book and get back to you
I think what you are referring to is Causal Time Loops. I’ve heard that they have been logically applied to the origin of the universe. Basically it goes like this; the cause of the universe is the effect in an infinite loop. Whilst this is difficult to comprehend it involves no logical fallacies. It is merely experience which brings us to believe that the effect is always caused, and never it’s own cause. It’s an interesting explanation, I really enjoy time-based philosophy, hence why I took a class in it. Causal Time Loops are an incredibly interesting concept. I’d encourage you all to read up on them, since they explore many concepts that are shown in sci-fi movies of today.
[PREATOR ANTRAX QUOTES PAPA GIORGIO] (he quotes my first “Contingent Being” example and then says….)
This argument only works if all premises are correct, and I can’t see any reason why you can’t deny these premises. Both ‘a’ and ‘b’ of P1 can be denied, although ‘b’ requires the introduction of causal time loops as I stated above. You can’t just post an argument and assume that it is correct, the logic is perfect, but the premises aren’t necessary and whilst that makes this argument cogent it doesn’t assure its validity.
KAIGUN:
[KAIGUN QUOTES CRAZY MOFO] I like the cat example, it produces the same problem we have here. We can’t prove there is or isn’t a creator. SO we must choose the most logical choice, and that is that there isn’t one. And don’t say but why is that the most logical choice? Because i’m not gonna repeat myself as I am forced to in almost every thread i’m sick of it, you know how I feel on this…
Ok, I won’t ask you why you think its the most logical choice. I will tell you that you blantantly wrong. It is not the most logical choice. To paraphrase Heretic, if neither side can adequately prove their case, then the most logical choice would not be to side with either.
I used to think I was an atheist, until I discovered the vast majority of atheists were atheists simply because it supposedly gave them justification for their prejudice against Christianity. I didn’t want to be associated with such hatred and ignorance. I don’t see how anyone who values logic and knowledge could blindly believe in anything, be it the existence of God, non-existence of God, love or anything else for that matter.
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
No MOFO, the reason you and I cannot communicate is because you state things – over-and-over-again – that just aren’t true. I just showed you in my last post the many examples and misuses you make of the limited information you have. Another reason we cannot communicate is that you refuse to suspend your belief for a little while and look into the matter for yourself (I suggest the book by the atheist). I wasn’t born into a Christian family? I was an atheist (or thought I was) for many years. I didn’t want to stop or suspend my beliefs because this would mean changing my life style – or altering it. I grew up indoctrinated with evolution, all my parents watched were PBS shows and Carl Sagan by-lines.
However, when I started to actually look into the matter myself, I was told that the evidence was so massive that any “intellectual” person would be a fool not to accept it. Naturally I didn’t want to be a fool. So when I finally started to dig for this evidence, all I turned up were a lot of “soft” theories about how things “might have happened.” There was no solid empirical evidence for evolution. And after many years of reading, and looking into the matter, I found more evidence for the creation model and evidence for God’s existence than rock turning into man (the atheists Bible).
As far as God being energy, energy is not eternal; it was made at the Big Bang. Since matter and energy didn’t exist at one point, and everything that comes to exist has a cause, what caused the Big Bang?
MOFO, I am a high school drop out. And all I am pointing out is that you say stuff like, “the church taught a flat-earth/geocentric universe and this is one of the many reasons I don’t believe in God…”, which is what you imply implicitly and explicitly, you are basing your beliefs on something that isn’t true. And I have shown many of these you have brought up in your repertoire of “evidences” you use for, a) evolution; and b) evidences you use against God. I am not attacking you as much as I am challenging you to see that you have accepted a worldview not based on evidence, logic, or rational/evidential prodding, but only on bias against anything metaphysical. You, are a philosophical materialist, a naturalist by choice, not by evidence.
Once you realize this, you may wish to look into the matter more deeply, for yourself, not because Papa GiorgioG says so. What college do you go to (what area), I bet there may be a creationist professor that teaches there that I can find for you (PM me).
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
ANTRAX, are you a contingent being? How could this be denied?
PAPA GIORGIO [ME]:
ANTRAX, are you a contingent being? How could this be denied?




