Originally Posted August 2010 (Conversation was from 2001)
“No SeanG, unlike you, we are not forcing morality on anybody. We are for allowing a choice. NOWHERE in the pro-choice agenda is there anything about making abortion mandatory.” (Emphasis in the original)
Answer: For women, Roe means more than having control over their bodies; it allows them to plan her life. If there’s a contraceptive failure, the law protects her, permits her to decide whether-or-not to become a parent.
Once contraception has failed, the women have ALL the rights. She can get an abortion. If she decides to have the child, she can make the father pay support, whether or not he wanted it. According to Roe, the man’s obligation begins and ends with his wallet. This is true, but money facilitates existence (one of the reasons an abortion is allowed… monetary standard of living). The quality of life is measured in dollars and cents.
Inarguably, the man is required to pay support for eighteen years and will have his standard of living diminished (severely so, if his circumstances are modest). Certain career, education, and family options will be foreclosed – for the man at least.
(Sound familiar? These are excuses for the women to get “off the hook” – e.g., abort a life – but men don’t have that choice.)
If maximizing personal freedom is the primary goal of our legal system, why should men be held to their traditional obligations (supporting the children they’ve fathered) while women are liberated from theirs?
- “Do you believe the government should be able to force someone to become a parent?”
Well? This is precisely what is being done by the government à as I speak! You would argue that the government should stay out of your affairs when choosing whether to become a parent (i.e., to abort or not), however, you wish the government to be involved in telling the father that he has to become a parent and supply all the necessary needs for that child. Thus, you are forcing your morality on me Susan (as a defined group) and using the power of the Federal Government to boot!!! You cannot say any differently with what I just have shown above. This belief is self-refuting and shows you to-be-the hypocrite, and not me. You see… I am for equal rights under the Constitution. A “right” has no “moderation (see below). You, on the other-hand, are for special rights inferred upon groups of people.
An aside: in the Laws of Logic, the Law of Non-Contradiction is the most important and can thus be stated like this – “A” cannot both be “A” and “non-A” at the same time. This law is valid in science, law, politics, philosophy, etc. Any theory which purports something, cannot also deny that purport’ion. As in this case, the pro-choice movement is purported to be about liberating – “civil” rights – etc., however, in doing this they deny to some what they want for others… it is self-refuting, a non-logical theory that is really about special rights rather than equal protection under the law.
An Update via Gay Patriot:
Good point: If women can’t be “forced” to become mothers, why should men be “forced” to become fathers?
Swedish Liberal Youth argues that men should be given an equal say in whether or not they wish to become a parent, and be granted the option to cut any lawful responsibilities.
The suggested ‘legal abortion’ would be irreversible and would see the man renounce all parental duties and rights to see the child once it has been born.
This completely at odds with the position of the American Feminist Left which is that men should be forced to provide child support even for children that are proven to be someone else’s…
- Student: You made some good points in your talk, but you shouldn’t force your morality on me or anyone else who wants an abortion. It’s our choice, isn’t it?
- Me: Are you saying I’m wrong?
- Student: I’m not sure. What do you mean?
- Me: Well, you think I’m wrong, don’t you? If not, why are you correcting me? And if so, then you’re forcing your morality on me, aren’t you?
- Student: No, I just want to know why you are telling people what they can and cannot do with their lives.
- Me: Are you saying I shouldn’t do that? That it’s wrong? If so, then why are you telling me what I can and cannot do? Why are you forcing your morality on me?
- Student (regrouping): I’m confused. Look, the simple fact is that pro-choicers are not forcing women to have abortions, but you want to force women to be mothers. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one. But you shouldn’t force your beliefs on others. All I am saying is that pro-life people should be tolerant of other views.
- Me: Is that your view?
- Student: Yes.
- Me: Why are you forcing it on me? That’s not very tolerant, is it?
- Student: What do you mean? I think women should have a choice and you don’t. It’s your view that’s intolerant, wouldn’t you say?
- Me: Okay, so you think I’m wrong. What is it you want pro-lifers like me to do?
- Student: You should let women decide for themselves and tolerate other views.
- Me: Tell me, what exactly do pro-choicers believe?
- Student: We believe everyone should decide for themselves and tolerate other views.
- Me: So you are demanding that pro-lifers become pro-choicers?
- Student: What? No way.
- Me: With all due respect, here’s what I hear you saying. Unless I agree with you, you will not tolerate my view. Privately, you’ll let me think whatever I want, but you don’t want me to act as if my view is true. It seems you think tolerance is a virtue if and only if people agree with you.
- Thirty Years of Studies Showing Negative Impacts;
- This Day Choose Life (*GRAPHIC* Not Intended For All Audiences);
- A Woman Conceived By Rape, Rebecca Keissling, Speaks to the “Rape Clause”;
- Bullet Points On the Pro-Choice/Pro-Life Argument (Updated);
- Glenn Beck Watches My Video of a Partial-Birth Abortion;
- Obama Gives Highest Civilian Medal To Eugenics;
- Theologian Wayne Grudem | Abortion (Exodus 21:22);
- When Does Life Begin?;
- You Do Not Have To Be Religious To Be PRO-LIFE ~ Just Reasonable (3-great audio presentations);
- Abortion Debate at Westmont College
- Margaret Sanger and the Racist History of Planned Parenthood (Black Genocide).